Gameplay -- Overpowered (alpha 2)

[khan]

May 16, 2011 10:40:03 GMT -5 Variaz said:

The items with higher misfortune might indeed be overpowered, and a misfortune 2 item is much stronger than a misfortune 1 item, witout much drawbacks. Add Cursed Treasure Seeker(which might still need some tweaking), and you get one powerful item. (let's not even talk about Misfortune 5/6, which are probably overpowered)

Now that they get a buff in the next release, I might have to revise the extra Misfortune boost. Probably what I will do is make higher Misfortune NOT affect the items, and instead be based on how much bonus points they are worth. Or at least, make it much less significant, and take the possibility of Cursed Treasure Seeker into consideration too. This way, cursed items will have a higher chance at tempting new characters to use them, while being more balanced for higher level players.

To be honest, again, I wasn't really expecting peoples would beat them in this release. It's also why there's only two Nightmares, as obviously, there's going to be things stronger than Nightmare Shadow Mistresses. It looks like I may have to bring them out earlier than expected. No way I'm gonna let peoples survive easily with 10+ Misfortune!

There is a lesson to learn here: never underestimate the ability of players at finding creative ways of beating seemingly unbeatable opponents. This is good! I'm going to have a LOT of fun bringing back the Secret Levels like the one in the orc dungeon in 0.4!

Looking forward to it - you always have a good imagination when it comes to evil ways of making things difficult for players!

[khan]

My marksman did finish the main quest, but I won't post the character as the numbers got silly:
(1) Nightmare Licalyds with level 120 to 190.
(2) When used to enchant objects object have very large misfortune 10 to 50.
(3) Terrifyingly large bonuses on stats and skills, sometimes overflowing to negative.
(4) Same for damages (had to hack in and reduce my bolt damages to 2d2, and crossbow power to 130% to avoid damage overflow).
(5) Nightmares are worth more XP. Got to the point that killing 1 Shadow Mistress gained me 13 levels and I was already level 42.

Solution Suggestions

(1) Cap misfortune at 4/5.
(2) or Diminishing returns: Each level in misfortune increase results in less and less bonus increases (logarithmic function).
(3) I think greens either need a buff
(4) or to be more common (perhaps on a sliding scale of 0.2% (perhaps at earlier level) through 1% (at level 40) up to a maximum of 5%.
(5) More difficult Nightmares (although other members of the forum may not thank me for suggesting this).

[Variaz]

Misfortune 50??? It went that high??

I was wondering how you could possibly get damage overflow in 0.5, but with Misfortune 50 items(which shouldn't even exist), I am not surprised... 4/5 WAS supposed to be about the best you could get!

EDIT: Overflow in 0.5... you don't even get that with something ridiculous like 10000 strength, +10000 to_d and 20d20 base damage on a max roll. And 10000 strength means a VERY high level(like 150-200, near the max, and even then...), and an almost exclusive focus on strength, which would kill you since you wouldn't have constitution and defense skills. Can't believe something went beyond THAT....at level 30ish...

This is less of an overpowered item, and more of a bug at this point. The solution isn't to buff greens, but to prevent reds from getting that crazy.

I will ask this: how did you find Misfortune 1 items? BEFORE using Nightmare Scout's ability? Do you think they were good enough to be worth risk using over blues, or do you agree with my idea to give them a buff in the next patch?

No matter what, however, I will definitely prevent this scenario from occuring again. I will probably go with my ideas of not using the Misfortune level to calculate the bonus, but rather have Misfortune be dependant on the item's quality, based on the total bonus points value when it is generated. (only when generated, not when you level it up) For example, start at Misfortune 1, and then increase by 1 every 100 bonus points...


Also, can you email me your save file? I really want to see just how crazy it got. ([e-mail])

[Gando]

*is never going to be using Nightmares in their current form again* I don't think it is healthy game play. Not only that but I don't think it balances at all.

[Variaz]

May 16, 2011 18:08:52 GMT -5 Gando said:

*is never going to be using Nightmares in their current form again* I don't think it is healthy game play. Not only that but I don't think it balances at all.

As I've said, this is closer to a bug at this point than a balance problem. Trust me, Misfortune 50 items were NOT intended.

[Gando]

I just meant the whole thing. Even at level 1 Nightmare Scouts really wreck the game unless you do what Khan did and equip only eternal items and just die a lot in order to finally get a win. Seems like a lack of balance to me. I understand the purpose but I don't agree with it. It reminds me of the old "OneUpsmanship" of GM vs players syndrome.

[khan]

Misfortune 50??? It went that high??

Not very often, but yes it went that high. I never equiped these items though as most of their bonuses were negative. (self balancing )

I was wondering how you could possibly get damage overflow in 0.5, but with Misfortune 50 items(which shouldn't even exist), I am not surprised... 4/5 WAS supposed to be about the best you could get!

EDIT: Overflow in 0.5... you don't even get that with something ridiculous like 10000 strength, +10000 to_d and 20d20 base damage on a max roll. And 10000 strength means a VERY high level(like 150-200, near the max, and even then...), and an almost exclusive focus on strength, which would kill you since you wouldn't have constitution and defense skills. Can't believe something went beyond THAT....at level 30ish...

I was playing a marksman so strength had very little impact, but you try wielding a bolt with 200d200 damage (and some got MUCH higher) with a crossbow with 500% power, DEX = 24000, Crossbow skill = v.large and 20 levels of piercing shot + other abilities. Although even before I started using reds my marksman was probably doing more damage than an equivalent mele character (and may still need some balancing). However, I didn't start getting stupid number until I was over level 40 maybe 50 (I lose track as leveling became very fast when killing nightmares - again higher level nightmares may need to give less XP as well).

This is less of an overpowered item, and more of a bug at this point. The solution isn't to buff greens, but to prevent reds from getting that crazy.

I really meant the greens suggestion as a seperate thing and not so much as a buff to their power (although they may need it if you buff low level reds), but to their frequency of appearance (they just have so little impact on gameplay at the moment and when/if you do find one, usually you can't use it with you specific build)

I will ask this: how did you find Misfortune 1 items? BEFORE using Nightmare Scout's ability? Do you think they were good enough to be worth risk using over blues, or do you agree with my idea to give them a buff in the next patch?

Yes, if you keep your total misfortune below 5 and run from the few nightmare scounts you see misfortune 1 items are worth it.

No matter what, however, I will definitely prevent this scenario from occuring again. I will probably go with my ideas of not using the Misfortune level to calculate the bonus, but rather have Misfortune be dependant on the item's quality, based on the total bonus points value when it is generated. (only when generated, not when you level it up) For example, start at Misfortune 1, and then increase by 1 every 100 bonus points...

Sounds much better, but I wouldn't make it a linear scale or some irritating player will find some way of breaking it . I'd suggest +1 for 100 bonus points upto 3 misfortune then +1 for 200 bonus points for two more levels and doubling for each two levels therafter.

Also, can you email me your save file? I really want to see just how crazy it got. ([e-mail])

Will do when I get home tonight.

[Gando]

Khan you aren't irritating... Breaking the game the way you do is extremely valuable. Keep trying to do it. The more balance issues you reveal the better the game will be for everyone else.

[Variaz]

Sounds much better, but I wouldn't make it a linear scale or some irritating player will find some way of breaking it . I'd suggest +1 for 100 bonus points upto 3 misfortune then +1 for 200 bonus points for two more levels and doubling for each two levels therafter.

Oh, you aren't irritating at all. I'm actually glad you've tried using the cursed items, and discovered that they are broken at high Misfortune levels and with the Cursed Treasure Seeker ability.

But I will have to review how CTS works, and if there's no good ways to balance it, I may have to remove it, and replace it by something else. It is, right now, ridiculously strong. As soon as you can defeat Nightmare Scout, if you get 10 points in the ability, you get +20% to items ranks per Misfortune. Now, raise your Misfortune to 5 and you get double items ranks. Add the bonus of cursed items to items ranks.... and then the Misfortune bonus.... yeouch.

For those who haven't seen it:

Cursed Treasure Seeker(Passive)

Effect: Improves quality of magic items based on your Misfortune.
Bonus to magic item rank: 2% per points of Misfortune.
Bonus chance to get levelables: +2% per points of Misfortune.
Extra points: Bonus to magic item rank: +2% per points of Misfortune.
Bonus chance to get levelables: +2% per points of Misfortune.

This passive ability will increase the quality of all magic items you find
based on your Misfortune level, as well as raise the chance of getting
levelable items as opposed to normal magic items. The higher your
Misfortune, the greater the effect.

ABOUT NIGHTMARE ABILITIES:

These abilities are a separate set of abilities that you can learn by defeating
Nightmare Horrors, and using their licialhyds. They do not require ability
points to learn, although they do count toward the total abilities limit.
Each Nightmare Horror has a different ability. You may learn a new ability, or
improve a learned one, once every 3 levels. Both normal races and monsters
may learn these abilities.

[Variaz]

Thanks for file Khan!

But...wow. You had SCARY stats there! What's even scarier, however, is that a Nightmare Shadow Mistress managed to one-round me anyway.

Of course, that's not surprising. A Nightmare currently receives a bonus to it's level equal to twice your Misfortune. So with 180 Misfortune, the monster would get +360. Now, Shadow Mistress is minimum level 60 by default, to that gives her a minimum level of 420, which is more than you will ever encounter, even at level 200. (I plan of going no higher than 300, as far as enemy levels are concerned)

But still... it IS actually kind of weird, considering the INSANE AC this character has. I'll have to do some more tests, and see what the monster's stats actually were.

[khan]

I found the same thing at the end. There was a point I was dealing with shadow mistresses fairly easily, the I made a whole new set of reds from their licalyds. At this point my total misfortune was 180 and suddenly I'm meeting mistresses that can 1 round me again, although if I see them 1st then I can 1 round (actually 1 shot) them so as long as I'm careful and keep the TP up I'm ok.

I think AC is irrelevant since she gets a chance to pierce defences.

[Variaz]

Actually, Nightmares have a chance to ignore elemental resistances, but they don't ignore AC.

[Variaz]

Let's see what Strength and Attack Skill at level 420 Nightmare Shadow Mistress should have, and let's see if it makes sense.

Her base stats would be 843. Then, 2% bonus per levels. Meaning her stats are 7924. Then a further 1% bonus, which gives 41204. Double that amount, since she's a Nightmare. Which gives 82408. Double THAT since she's CR4. 164816. Then, for both strength and skill, she has 200% value, so this means 329632.

Her base damage is 6d10, with an increase in dices every 12 levels, and sides every 7 levels. So this gives her 41d70.

So with those stats, she does between 13 514 912 and 946 043 840 damage.

Ah well, this is good, we aren't breaking the damage cap yet! But of course, this is a level 420 monster, which should NOT happen. EVER. But a one-shot can make sense, though I think your AC was way above 329632.... but I could be wrong. (I'm at work right now, can't check)

I still think the stats are too high though. At least for a CR4 enemy, even a Nightmare, and even at 420. I will have to do more maths and see what stats a level 40 Nightmare Scout and a level 60 Shadow Mistress have. I'm curious... Maybe the stats needs to be lowered.

[khan]

I don't think her chance to hit me was good, as she would normally miss first 3 or 4 attacks, but one hit was enough.

[khan]

Although even before I started using reds my marksman was probably doing more damage than an equivalent mele character (and may still need some balancing).

I've been playing a new marksman (without reds) and although I still think they do more damage than an equivalent melee character I don't think they are unbalanced as they tend to be easier to kill as well.