Gameplay -- Overpowered (alpha 2)

[Variaz]

Things you think are overpowered, in terms of classes, skills, etc...

[Gando]

Leave it to me to be the first to report something overpowered.

The rat boss is too tough for a starting level 1 rogue. This really puts a cramp in starting out I think since it is the very first quest. Now if we leveled off the normal rats we might have a chance by the time we get to him but as it is he has far too many hit points to kill. Not sure ANY of the basic classes can kill him at level 1.

[Variaz]

Didn't think it was overpowered, but... what's your level 1 setup? Did you make sure you've raised a weapons skill? I agree that if you are using a 10 Stealth + Stealthy Fighter[1] combo, that means you essentially have 1 Fighting skill...and yeah, it may be a little rough with only that.

At this point, I'd say go down to a random dungeon, and just kill some really weak stuff like worms until you gain a level.

It's a good point though, this boss should be easy enough to be killed with just the bronze dagger you start with.


From my own playthrough, the Stealthy Fighter build is a little tougher in the early levels, but once you have a couple points it becomes much better.

[Gando]

That is precisely what I did. Restarted taking the dodging ability instead of stealthy fighting and max agility instead of stealth then went to a random dungeon, gained a level, found some cheap items, died to the insanely powerful level 2 boss and went to the tavern to get the quest. The fight was STILL quite hard but using the hit and run technique I managed to eventually whittle his enormous hitpoints down to zero.

[Gando]

I want to say I do think all bosses should be tough. I just think the beginner quest needs to be doable without doing outside things like going to find a random dungeon. I think the answer is to a) reinstate quest monsters experience and allow for the fact that a few really timid players may abuse that as a source of experience rather than going to kill in some random dungeon. Keeping in mind that rats become worthless after a few levels this doesn't seem that horrible. Oh I should note the boss fight did not earn me much xp so I am assuming you don't want players leveling up off it. And b) maybe put some odd random items on the dungeon floor (in the alcove off to the side of the entrance for example could be some random (easy to open) chest. That it has rats in it that you don't have to fight makes it seem like a natural place for treasure. Also maybe the alcoves, treating the dungeon as a mini vault if you will (with nothing left after the first time you enter it to prevent easy item scumming.)

[Variaz]

Giving experience off the rats is not a problem at all(and the fact that you didn't level up off the boss wasn't really intentional, more of a side effect of the experience system having been revamped a bit), nor is putting a few treasures in the alcoves.

But in later quests, allowing experience does become abusable, and the problem lies in the predictability of encounters. No matter how strong the monster is, a player can prepare for that one specific monster. It's always possible to tweak your gear, get high resistances to the monster's attacks, use cursed items(which have no drawbacks in quests), etc... And it's a good thing too, it's all part of completing a quest. But if it becomes abusable, then it's a problem, especially if you can prepare enough to face a CR2+ enemy.

The REAL solution would be to grant experience when you kill things and register the kill so that this monster is gone forever. But that's a little hard to do, since the quest levels are not pregenerated in the system(nor do I want them to be), and so there's no real ways to actually register a kill in a quest. So this isn't an option.


However, an exception could be made for the rats, by having them grant 1 point of experience per kills for level 1 players.

[Gando]

I think my point was that abusing quest monsters that way is somewhat self-defeating as you aren't actually learning how to overcome harder monsters by killing predictable ones. Also the preparation going into kill mobs should count for something in terms of earned experience. But the real issue is: How much of a grind is the leveling process? If it is too hard then people will of course look for ways to make it easier. That is natural. If you want it to be a grind then fine. Won't be a game I enjoy playing but I know some people LOVE that kind of game and it will certainly be a hit in that quadrant. If you want it to be about the story then the story should be the main way to level. If you want it to be about achievements then completing goals should be where the xp comes from. Maybe it could be a combination.

In terms of unique objects, that is doable but it requires a different style of programming than the bands/roguelikes are traditionally set up for. (Unique id codes, a database of some kind, error checking functions to make sure that a dead creature does not resurrect by accident, etc.) This was something I was talking to a friend about, concerning a browser RPG using a mud-like interface. But in the end I found it too intense a task for me. I am sure you could do it but it is definitely daunting.

Also is it possible to tweak the Challenge Rating system to be a bit more detailed? I feel like Bosses should be a CR higher than normal mobs so that players know they are not facing just a regular pushover monster.

Something like:

CR 0: an untrained apprentice with a pointy stick could kill this.
CR 1: gives poorly equipped characters under level 4 a hard time.
CR 2: bring good gear or be over 2nd level to have a chance with this.

etc. As it is now the CR means nothing for the first 15-20 levels right? If it is there as an informational tool then it should be more specific imho.

[Variaz]

I do not want it to be a grind game. I've even made leveling a bit faster in alpha 2, and you have the expensive scrolls of Instant Item Level Up to provide easy item replacement for the late game when you finally find that cool green special item. But I do not want to make it so that you don't have to beat the monsters in the dungeons, and can just run away from everything, then grind off a preset monster in the quest, then rinse and repeat until you're high enough level. It's also normal, in my opinion, to have to take some time to fight some monsters and gain a few levels and item levels before facing a difficult enemy.

I will say that I did find it slightly annoying myself to not gain any experience at all during my playthrough of the Stealthy Vipers questline, so I'm not saying it's the right solution. I suppose enabling experience in quests would be something to try, and then we could see how it goes.

CR has an effect on stats, but is also in part an arbitrary stat. The CR is not calculated, and isn't determined by the monster's status as a unique, elite, boss, or stats modifiers or anything. It is assigned in the r_info, and stays the same for all creatures of that kind.

It does have an effect to stats. Monsters hp is multiplied by their CR(though that bonus is additive with the elite/boss/nightmare bonus, not multiplicative), and then applies a percentile bonus to stats. The modifiers:

CR1: No bonus.
CR2: +25% to stats/skills/ac.
CR3: +50%
CR4: +100%
CR5: +200%
CR6: +300%
CR7: +450%
CR8: +600%
CR9: +800%
CR10: +1000%

And that's in addition to the stuff that made them CR2+ in the first place. This is usually a combination of very high stats modifiers, a lot of resistances, special abilities and other things that makes them unusually hard.

[Gando]

Ok see I was thinking of it as an informational guide for players. ie: cr 3 = run like heck and don't stop to breath, etc. Perhaps instead of listing that, list a challenge rating guide that gives us some idea of just how strong particular monsters are? Just a thought.

[Gando]

Another final death since I lost most of my loot in the main quest. Apparently level 12 is too low to face the orcs now. I am thinking maybe level 28 now with the revised combat.

[Gando]

I should note that I had about 5k hp (slightly under) and it was worth nothing vs the champions. Didn't have a problem killing the orcs...just couldn't survive the blows. Need uber levels/leveling items and or thousands more hp+better AC (Hardened heavy armors...hence not good for a rogue.)

[Variaz]

At what point of the game are you at right now? And what were you trying to fight? What level were the enemies?

[Gando]

I was doing the main quest. Honestly it all happened so quickly I don't recall the levels. Can't go back and look either since when he died I just went to the red portal and ended it. (Score of 1290, 1 death total.)

[Variaz]

For the next release, I am now trying this:

Monsters in quests will now be worth some experience. However, for every monsters of that particular kind that you kill, the experience awarded for it will drop by 5%. So after killing 20 monsters of a specific kind, it won't be worth experience anymore, so you won't be able to farm it forever. This, of course, only apply to monsters in quest levels. If that monster appears in a dungeon, it will still be worth experience.

This way, it will be possible to gain some experience doing the quests, while preventing endlessly farming them. Also, at level 1, monsters killed will be worth at least 1 experience, meaning that you will raise to level 2 after the rats quest if you kill at least 10 rats.

[Gando]

There is absolutely NO way Shauma is a challenge rating 1 creature. Insanely high HP, AC + ball spells that take out her own entourage? Way, way, way too hard. At level 19 rogue I can't even dent her HP with 6k per turn max.

Well to be fair I did reincarnate and put all my ability points into a combat build and finally beat her after running away a few times so it is POSSIBLE, but not very likely without especially regearing the stats for a pure rogue build to beat her at that level.

I do think this points out an imbalance in the Rogue abilities. The non combat abilities do not even come up half way to par vs the combat abilities which while seemingly not great do at least give some edge. (At 10 stealthy fighting I improved my damage by about 3k (with an admittedly slightly lowered stealth for an extra 10 points in MD-- that was the only skills shift at all.) But I also added 3 AP into the level 9 ability and kept the same points in Rogue Weapons (3) that I had before with a point in sneak attacks and poisoning (but this seems a waste even with bee sting equipped) as I am not running a Kobold Rogue.

The thing is everything is a bit harder combat wise with Rogues this go around so I suppose I should just ignore Thievery and Lockpicking and other non essential non combat abilities but it seems a shame to do so. My last build I put thievery at 14 which is obviously way way too much since it garners no real benefit gold wise and wastes valuable points. I just wanted to gain maximum benefit from it but it looks like that isn't really possible to and also do the quests which are part of the main reason for playing at all.

Lost 1350 score points just to prove this point which sucks (not that score matters.) Died on purpose stowing all my gear first.