Gameplay -- Overpowered (alpha 2)

[Variaz]

May 2, 2011 18:34:10 GMT -5 Gando said:

Same character gets to the bottom (level 17) of the dungeon he is in and meets the boss who has 38k hp and hits for 90% of my rogue's hp. Needless to say since I save before entering the last levels to avoid crashes I save scummed out of there. I should note I did about 3k to him so I guess if I had about 50k more hp Id be ok bashing him to death with my Iron Rapier...As it is though, Random Quest Level Bosses seem to be insanely hard. The funny thing is the last dungeon before that I reached the bottom of the boss was eminently beatable since I was only level 4 or so. I guess that's what I get for leveling up?

Right now, the random bosses are too hard. I've faced a similar problem in the Flow, where everything was fine until I get a room with a boss... the boss was CR2, had 160k hp and was rather impossible to beat for my level 20 dwarf.

It's actually a bit difficult to create a balanced random monsters generator. The generator must try to follow the game's difficulty curve, which can be a bit tough. However, it must also make sure that the monsters it creates are different enough so that it creates some unpredictability. If all monsters follow the same identical stats growth and similar powers and abilities, then there is almost no point in having random monsters in the first place.

There is also the issue of CR. I allowed dungeon bosses to be CR2 and higher(up to 4 at high levels), but I am wondering if that's really wise. CR2 can be overcome with good gear and proper level, but CR3 and higher will typically require more preparation, full sets of levelables, and for a random boss, I am not sure if this is suitable, since you don't have the possibility to prepare yourself for the battle. The solution becomes "use cursed items for major advantage", which of course requires a completely different approach to the way you play the game.

[Gando]

Yeah I can see that there is a conflict between making the game a challenge and making it easy enough to be doable without extreme frustration. Tough to find a happy medium.

[Gando]

Nightmares are way way way overpowered in this version. Not only do they do insane amounts of damage (over 50k in 1 hit vs almost 600 ac) they also mass summon others of their kind. This is just wrong. The dark balls for 40-50k are also rather craptastic to run into.

I should mention I am referring to the lowest level ones (Scouts) and these are summoned with a mere 1 point of misfortune. There is a serious power disparity here.

[Variaz]

May 4, 2011 12:25:56 GMT -5 Gando said:

Nightmares are way way way overpowered in this version. Not only do they do insane amounts of damage (over 50k in 1 hit vs almost 600 ac) they also mass summon others of their kind. This is just wrong. The dark balls for 40-50k are also rather craptastic to run into.

I should mention I am referring to the lowest level ones (Scouts) and these are summoned with a mere 1 point of misfortune. There is a serious power disparity here.

Nope. Nightmares were underpowered in 0.4. ;D Or maybe the player was overpowered due to multiplicative damage... Nightmare Scout always had it's summoning ability, this isn't new. It's just that even a Nightmare Horror was no match for the horribly broken damage multiplier system.

It's funny you mention this, as yesterday, I've decided to give cursed items a buff. Not only will they get better starting bonus, cursed levelables now gains 3 points per levels instead of 2. Combined with their elemental typing activations for weapons, they are definitely a huge step up from purples, and worth using if you are careful. (hint: Telepathy is a must-have when using cursed items)


Unlike other enemies in the game, the main idea of Nightmares is that you should run away from them at all cost. They are designed to create a special feeling of terror in the player whenever one is present. To make sure the terror is felt, they have uber stats, can pierce your resistances, deals extremely high damage, and each of them have an ability or quirk(and sometimes more than one) that makes it unique and a formidable opponent. For Nightmare Scout, it's it's ability to summon copies of itself, which can summon other copies. Other Nightmares have their own abilities too.

[Gando]

It doesn't seem to matter how powerful you make the cursed items. The nightmares will always been too powerful to deal with and even with Telepathy move fast enough (at +20 speed I was too slow for it) to be a menace from far away. I mean if your goal is to make the game randomly unplayable then ok I guess...

[Variaz]

The buff to cursed items isn't for the purpose of defeating Nightmares, but to make players consider using them as their regular equipment for killing OTHER enemies. Since cursed items have no drawbacks in quest levels, they can be a big help in defeating an otherwise difficult quest boss.

Wearing a few curseds will not make the game unplayable. You simply have to be more careful, and pay attention to certain enemies. If you see a "u" coming, you'll have to look at it and make sure it's not a Nightmare Scout. You will only get in trouble if you wear too many curseds. That's what you get for abusing evil power!

Of course, you can choose to not use cursed items.

...but how long will you resist the desire to wield that super powerful blade with high damage, high bonus and elemental type switching activation that you can't find anywhere else?

[Gando]

They are a deathwish wearing any at all. So that pretty much completely negates an entire section of the game except for cheaters.

[Variaz]

They are a deathwish early on when you first find them at lower levels(you can find some as early as depth 10). The fact that you can find them that early... is a trap! But it's more interesting than the old cursed items that are bad and can't be unequipped, a concept that I didn't like much. Here, the item is genuinely powerful. But carrying it comes with deadly risks.

However, later in the game, when you have the gear and the abilities needed to actually defeat the Nightmares, or at least survive long enough to flee, they become much better, as even a Misfortune 1 item is a big improvement over a normal purple(especially in the next patch). Not to mention the abilities you can get by beating the Nightmares. Since they do not use your normal APs, they are really nice to have!

So basically, they are a death trap early on at lower levels, but becomes much better as you become stronger and capable of taking on Nightmares.

[Gando]

I found my first one on level 28 or so...not even a close match up to the Nightmare scout it summoned which summoned its friends. Not even in the same realm. Might as well been level 10 for all the good extra levels + levelables etc did.

So death trap at any level imho.

I should point out that this character has not had trouble dealing with dragons (young) which imho should be one of the fiercest nastiest creatures in any game they are in.

[Variaz]

Well, it's CR2 vs CR3-Nightmare. A CR3 Mature Dragon, especially an elite or boss version, would probably be just as tough, if not more.

Also, level 28 isn't necessarely high level. Remember, the maximum level is 200... And Nightmare Scout's minimum level is 40.


CR3 enemies in general are very difficult to deal with in the current release, and that's partly due to the fact that the advanced classes are not out yet. The base classes focus mostly on passive bonus to damage and basic class features, but lacks more advanced abilities to deal with powerful enemies.

The upcoming Defender class will add a lot of defensive options for melee characters. And the other classes will add more stuff for other characters too. Remember, this is just an alpha, so not everything is ready or balanced yet.

[Gando]

OK well maybe for the alpha until you have a system we can use to defend against the depredations of ridiculous Mobs like Nightmare Scout, we can just have it not appear and not have cursed items at all? I must say the misfortune thing is a little misleading based on the way it worked in the past. 1 point spells doom as it stands now.

[Variaz]

For now, the best option is to run away, an option that should ALWAYS be considered when encountering Nightmares. But cursed items are still usable if you're willing to change your tactics.

If you don't want to, well, don't use them. No need to remove them from the game. Just drop them if you find them.

[khan]

I've been running my marksman with a few reds. Initially very difficult, an awful lot of running neccessary, especially when you see packs of nightmare scounts (not summoned!).
Eventually, managed to kill my first scout (some deaths first, but all items eternal), shoot from distance, he summons lots of scouts, jump to hiding place (preperpared in telepathic monitoring distance), wait till summoned scouts disappear and move back, wait to he comes in line of sight shoot and repeat). If he fires one of his ranged spells instead of summoning I'm usually dead, but occasionally I dodge.
Use the nightmare Licalyd to gain ability.
Do this 5 times and now almost all the items I'm finding are levelable (thanks to treasure seeker) and of MUCH higher quality. This is where is starts to get overpowered. At this point I'm making my own reds using the nightmare licalyd to fill specific spots (red viper crossbow x2, red viper boots, etc). Yes my misfortune is much higher, but Nightmare scounts are now correspondingly much easier (can sumtime kill them in one round) although still running from shadow mistress (can't hit her) ...
... much later
Full set of reds 1 level in accurate shots, 10 levels in sharpshooter, 20 levels in piercing shots, red items fully leveled (thanks to 1 level in blackmarket bounty hunter = lots of money when killing nightmare scounts = scrolls of level up) with a strong bias on DEX and Crossbow and finally I can hit Shadow Mistress. Then find if I don't one round them I'm dead (they teleport in and the rest is history). However, a liitle more time ... ... and a very good red ANDAMITE bolt and now I'm one rounding (12 shots) Nightmare mistresses. Fill up my remaining Nightmare ability spots with her dodging ability and WOW.
Now I'm finding/making reds with 5/6 misfortune which frankly are better than greens. Nightmare scounts are no longer a problem as I can take a few hits from their spells (lots of hp and GREAT dodging). Shadow mistresses can still kill me if they see me 1st, but now my misfortune is so high that alll the items I am finding are either red or blue and very, very good either way. Moreover, since 1 in 100 blues are green (if level high enough) I'm actually seeing a fair few greens and shock horror I've actually found one I can use (they almost alway seem to be weapons my chaacters not optimised for) an elven cloak, but I'm thinking of dumping it and making a viper cloak red with a licalyd from a mistress as these items (misfortune 5+) seem to be better than greens!
All in all, very satisfying, but perhaps a "trifle" overbalanced, while low level reds are about right, reds with high misfortune are immense (not sure if you wanted them better than greens!) and very easy to find/make. Also misfortune abililities are GREAT: Really good items from 1st and a dodging ability from 2nd makes it almost impossible for non-nightmares to hit you.
Higher level Nightmares might rebalance it (you might not want to wear so much red if you have to face them), but I have to admit I'm looking forward to the challenge.
Wearing a few reds has revitalised the game for me, although it was VERY, VERY difficult at first and took a LONG time to get on top - don't try this if you get frustrated easily!
Going to try and finish the main quest now and will post character if he completes.

[Gando]

"don't try this if you get frustrated easily!"
That's a mouthful. I don't know many people who are patient enough to go through all that. Sounds like a NIGHTMARE!!! (Sorry had to do it.) Grats on breaking the game.

[Variaz]

The items with higher misfortune might indeed be overpowered, and a misfortune 2 item is much stronger than a misfortune 1 item, witout much drawbacks. Add Cursed Treasure Seeker(which might still need some tweaking), and you get one powerful item. (let's not even talk about Misfortune 5/6, which are probably overpowered)

Now that they get a buff in the next release, I might have to revise the extra Misfortune boost. Probably what I will do is make higher Misfortune NOT affect the items, and instead be based on how much bonus points they are worth. Or at least, make it much less significant, and take the possibility of Cursed Treasure Seeker into consideration too. This way, cursed items will have a higher chance at tempting new characters to use them, while being more balanced for higher level players.

To be honest, again, I wasn't really expecting peoples would beat them in this release. It's also why there's only two Nightmares, as obviously, there's going to be things stronger than Nightmare Shadow Mistresses. It looks like I may have to bring them out earlier than expected. No way I'm gonna let peoples survive easily with 10+ Misfortune!

There is a lesson to learn here: never underestimate the ability of players at finding creative ways of beating seemingly unbeatable opponents. This is good! I'm going to have a LOT of fun bringing back the Secret Levels like the one in the orc dungeon in 0.4!