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Post by Variaz on Nov 17, 2008 17:04:28 GMT -5
As has been discussed in one of the Forge's thread, I am reconsidering adding this class for 008. Indeed, every RPGs needs a Bard. But depending on the game, this bard plays a very different role(sometimes making the "bard" title a little questionnable). So I am now asking: how should we do this class? There are many archetypes:
1. The D&D-style Warrior/Rogue/Mage class. I like to play as this class in D&D, but I'll admit that it doesn't have much of a "bardic" feeling. It really feels more like a.....well, a Warrior/Rogue/Mage.
2. A friendly/summoned monsters supporter. Through songs, he/she supports his/her allies to fight harder and better.
3. A class with music-themed passives. The bard can activate songs, which have various passive effects, such as damaging nearby enemies with Sound damages, scaring them, paralyzing them, etc...
4. A charisma-based caster-like character with a new "music" system. This is a bit like Gando's original suggestion, which is why I bumped his thread.
And of course, if you have any other ideas, feel free to post!
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Post by Frumple on Nov 17, 2008 18:19:37 GMT -5
I'll ding in for a summons/ally-support themed critter -- it's just something I'd like to see, as there's currently not much to do with that concept outside of pump two or three skills, Cha, and maybe an ability or two. Other skills (Crafting, par example) gets entire classes, so why not leadership? The other things are good ideas too, but most of them are adding to at least slightly existant themes, while 'raw leader' just isn't pleasant (or too terribly viable, for me at least.) to play (In my opinion, of course. Summoning's probably one of the clumsiest aspects of Port at the mo', and actually allies might as well be useless... if not actively annoying in some cases.).
Anyway, that's my $0.02 at the mo'. I might ding in more later, but I've been awake for about 27 hours now, and I'm getting a little drowzy, hoho.
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Post by espeorb on Nov 17, 2008 18:29:51 GMT -5
In addition, Variaz, if we do go the summoned/friendly monsters route, not only would the bard need to be able to charm them himself (or summon them), I would like one important add-on to the system: friendly monsters that don't dissappear when you enter another dungeon level. Like ToME. Perhaps they could even level up. Or be named
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Post by sekira on Nov 17, 2008 18:38:19 GMT -5
I vote for the music themed passives... with several aura type passive effects. I also like some support for friendly monsters, and ability to charm monsters too, but that could be part of the music themed passive abilities, right?
I kind of like the idea that each passive must be turned on, and you can only have one on at a time...
Perhaps there could be certain "melodies" that you can have only one on, and then there could be "harmonies" that are always on regardless of the melody you have chosen, or perhaps you can choose to include a harmony with whichever melody you have going.
lots of possibilities.
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Post by zekk on Nov 17, 2008 18:59:41 GMT -5
I think the bard should have music themed passives.
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Post by Gando on Nov 17, 2008 21:45:52 GMT -5
I like the idea of music themed passives BUT I prefer the charisma based caster with the Music Skill as a support mechanism. Also while some games do treat bards as a hybrid character or support character I think it has a real definition in GOOD games. Bards are not merely just 2nd rate fighters with some cantrips and a knowledge of the seedy side of life. They are tricksters, impressarios, songstresses, teachers, mailmen, casanovas, and many other things and do not forget the most important bard of all: Shakespeare who in his time was perhaps the greatest living bard ever. Now I guess it is debatable who is now but I still think his wordsmithing is among the best if not the best of the best. All this to say yay for including it...but don't make it just another knock off of some other game's definition. Make it unique for Portralis.
Features of the bard Id like to see implemented: -- Charisma based spell system -- Music skill to support above system. -- Musical instruments used to produce effects etc to support music skill. -- Musical Themed Abilities (including support for spell system)
One thing to note...a well shaped system for the bard would include abilities for charming monsters as well as summoning them. (cf my old thread.)
Anyway thats my two.five cents on that.
Also bringing back companions seems like a great idea but needs some restrictions/strictures: 1) companion at a time. 2) if you mistreat your companion they will part ways. 3) You must give your companion some portion of your experience gained. 4)If you give an item to your companion they get to keep it for good (or until they drop it), no take backs. 5) companion strength needs to be limited to within a certain amount of your own power level. Leadership should be required to increase this limit ever so slightly. And also to power up your companion.
and some positive things to think about: Companions should not merely wander off but should stay close by you aiding you in all combats unless you tell them otherwise. They should cast any spells they might have intelligently. They should use combat abilities likewise. They should not just scavenge whatever is on the floor unless you tell them to.
You should be able to talk some NPCs into joining you as a companion if your charisma and alignment coincide with their interests. (Some low charisma people might join others like themselves more readily than high charisma people, but over all higher will be better for this.)
Companions might get a chance to open locks/find traps and see hidden monsters/doors that you fail on Thus giving you another chance.
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Post by Variaz on Nov 18, 2008 0:04:20 GMT -5
A music "spellcasting" system might be the best idea, if only because it allows us to incorporate both the summoning support and passive abilities in it. Charisma-based spellcasting sounds fun! I am myself not too fond of the Warrior/Rogue/Mage approach, because you can already build characters like that through multiclassing. I agree that the bard should be unique, and provide it's own set of abilities.
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T10
Veteran
Posts: 99
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Post by T10 on Nov 18, 2008 5:35:00 GMT -5
Welcome again:) My old dream of a less-violent class coming real:) My vote at the Charisma-based bard and especialy the new music system. I wrote my ideas in the previous topic - new class: Bard.
I lost more and more of my english during time:((((
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Post by espeorb on Nov 18, 2008 6:33:47 GMT -5
4)If you give an item to your companion they get to keep it for good (or until they drop it), no take backs.
If we go that route, I would love to see the monster actually USE the items you give them, unlike companions in ToME. Whether it be a sword for weapon wielding monsters, a scroll at the right time or even gold to buy more items for itself, that would be a main thing.
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Post by Gando on Nov 18, 2008 16:02:47 GMT -5
4)If you give an item to your companion they get to keep it for good (or until they drop it), no take backs.If we go that route, I would love to see the monster actually USE the items you give them, unlike companions in ToME. Whether it be a sword for weapon wielding monsters, a scroll at the right time or even gold to buy more items for itself, that would be a main thing. Yeah that was the premise.
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Post by Variaz on Nov 24, 2008 17:02:57 GMT -5
Unless there's need for a 007.4, it's time to beging thinking about 008, and the Bard will be the first part of it. All right, so the poll has been running for a little while, and it seems what peoples wants is: "A new music system that will offer support for summons and passive effects". Nobody voted for the D&D-style Bard, and I can understand why, this class, although fun to play, doesn't feel musical at all. We can already make warrior/mage type characters through multiclassing, a class like that isn't needed in Portralis. So I suggest we get a new skill called "Music". This will allow you to create songs. I went back to Gando's previous thread, and I believe we can take some ideas, though as this is a skill, the Music system won't be exclusive to Bards and be usable by anyone(because you want your Mermaid Sorceress to be able to sing too, like a mermaid should! . The Bard will of course support it just like Mages and Priest supports their respective form of spellcasting. Gando suggested that song components should be items, and I agree. Melody items for song's effect, Harmony for power and Rythm for radius. Maybe Harmonies shouldn't be found though, since it's just for powering up the sound, though I guess "Create Harmony" could be one of Music's feats, so you'll get it only with natural points in Music. Meoldies will be very similar to spellbooks and crystals. And rythm will affect radius(again, perhaps a Music feat should allow their creation). Charisma will be the main stat, and I suggest that songs creates passive effects that are always active and circle/aura-like in shape. As for music instruments, I agree to have them wearable on the arm slots, and they would work kind of like rods for spells. (as for Essence Monsters, I guess the Main Essence will be used). This skill will be the first step toward the creation of the Bard class. Once we decide the final version of it, I'll implement it, and then we move on to the Bard to support it.
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T10
Veteran
Posts: 99
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Post by T10 on Nov 25, 2008 6:01:54 GMT -5
BARD - THE NEW ERA My old and newer ideas about singing. Everybody can sing. Mostly it isn't a great idea in a dungeon full of bloodthirsty monsters - but everybody can do it. The base singing works as an aura - you can toggle on and off. You can choose to sing or not to sing a song any time. Base effects of singing: - Stealth out of order - how surprising.... - Every single (and pack-mates too, of course:) monster on the current dungeon level begins to chase the singer. - All of the monsters enters or stays in the singer's effective radius when the character acts, (base value: 3) must make a will saving throw against the song's power. Song's base power is: singing proficiency + modified charisma. Monsters with failed saving throw getting enthralled. Enthrall stays as long as one of enthralled monsters is being attacked by the character in any damaging way. Some monsters are immune the enthrall effect. Elites and bosses are harder to enthrall. Music skill Ability to sing and play on musical instruments. Special feats: Songs (Passive, 5 points) With some talent, singers are able to sing special songs for all occasions. Effect: Character is able to sing special songs. Great concert (Active, 15 points) A skilled musician can influence the audience. By this ability they are pass through catharsis and leave their sinful ways to become peasants and craftsmen... Effect: All one of the enthralled monsters who doesn't worth a single xp for you (because of his low level) gone off. They leave no corpses but their standard treasures and some inspirations. Master of instruments (Passive, 25 points) A skillful musician is able to maximize the inherent potential of musical instruments. Effect: Doubles all modifiers of instruments. New items and effects: Enthralled: New effect. Enthralled monsters: can't attack, trying to chase the character, can be pushed away from way, will saves are halved. Inspiration: New item. Can be stacked. Has no weight. Eternal. Usable to empower special songs. Music instrument: New item. Wieldable in one or two hands. Able to add modifiers to effective song radius and other song effects. Special song: New item. Wieldable as like as crystals. Use of it feed by inspiration - one per use. Uses of them change the singing 'aura', add new effects to it. Only bards can create them with the proper ability.
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Post by Gando on Nov 25, 2008 7:25:30 GMT -5
T-10 I think your willingness to add to the game is great. However I really dislike the whole thing you said about singing. Im not 100% about the feats either.
Enthralled -- interesting but sounds very annoying very quickly. More of a draw back than a good thing.
Inspiration I dont really get what you mean by this. Are you talking about making songs into rods::crystals? because my feeling is this has been done already in this game and the repetition doesn't seem to serve a purpose here. Maybe you could clarify this idea and tell us more about what you mean.
Musical instruments... I think the instruments should be individualized to give them flavor and each should have their own realm of possible effects/item stats. modifying song radius (since they will be Circlelike Auras apparently, though I think the case might be made for there being nonradiating songs) seems like it will be a given.
Special Song -- cf my comments about inspiration.
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Post by Variaz on Dec 24, 2008 11:04:38 GMT -5
Ok, I'm starting to implement music! Now, one thing that hasn't been much discussed is the place of musical instruments. How should it work? There's some options: - They provides bonus to songs. - They are REQUIRED to use songs, and songs improves in various ways based on the musical instrument. - They just provide a bonus to Music skill, while have activations that produces charisma-based effects. If you have any other ideas, let me know. Also, should they be worn, or just carried in inventory?
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Post by Gando on Dec 24, 2008 16:50:17 GMT -5
I think musical instruments should a) boost music skill a little based on depth b) require music skill and or charisma to wield c) be required as equipped item to perform songs. d) boost song power/effects based on type of instrument (winds, strings, percussion, etc) e) have a few artifacts that are the epitome of this type of equipment.
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