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Post by Variaz on Oct 20, 2008 22:06:10 GMT -5
Ok, following Frumple's posts in bug reports, I tested it myself. High level monsters with high con and life are pretty much unkillable. But the problem may not be the hp alone, since enemies starts hitting high by that point. It does help, but that's not my biggest concern.
It's when you combine it with several other things: - Natural resistances that can be very high. - Counters. - Martial Arts blocking. - Halve Damages level 10 ability.
Since monsters have such high base stats, it makes blocking very easy for them, MUCH easier than regular players. If they get two chances to block at 75%, followed by 50-75 or even 100 resistance, and if there's still damages, halved by the level 10 ability, what's left? A measly amount that gets lost in 3 million hp. This makes monsters pretty nigh unkillable, and that is a problem. And I forgot the high def they get too... Oh, and many counters blocks magic too.
We need to find a way to balance this somehow. Lowering monsters resistance in r_info is not an option, since it would make encounters with said monsters easier, nor is removing their counters. Applying only a portion of resistances for players doesn't seem fun either, since some monsters are fun to play because of immunities, such as Ghosts.
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Post by Gando on Oct 20, 2008 22:12:56 GMT -5
Hmmm I haven't run into any monster playable races that end up unkillable...but then I am not that uber a player. Even at halved damage with blocks included I have been 1hit by some of the most feirce monsters.
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Post by Frumple on Oct 20, 2008 22:30:28 GMT -5
It might be an essence issue more than anything else -- that mud critter only has 86k hp, once stripped down. Possibly the Life % boost needs a bit of a tone down?
As for the rest of it... well, of the 4 issues above, the only one you don't wanna' leave be sounds like M.Arts. Wasn't there mention of some potential for alternate mechanics for monsters? It'd probably make sense, at least for the "monsterous" (essence-heavy) monsters.
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Post by Variaz on Oct 20, 2008 22:37:59 GMT -5
Yeah, the blocking for Martial Arts, in case of monsters, isn't really needed in many cases since they get their own natural counters.
Life bonus is big if your hp is big. However, smaller monsters with little hp might actually NEED that boost, as do normal races that don't use Armored Health. Perhaps the hp boost for monsters and Armored Health should be applied only after life bonus, so it would benefit from the level, but not the life boosting. And then yes, maybe make life bonus a bit lower on essences of monsters with extra lives, since they're so common. This, combined with removal of Martial Arts block for monsters(since they already have their counters), should improve the situation.
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Post by Gando on Oct 22, 2008 0:05:08 GMT -5
It seems to me after having played an 's' monster for a while, some monsters really just are not viable. The lack of an essence slot means they cant benefit from the possibility of getting an activation ability and the lack of magic that effects other undead (in particular 'G' type monsters) skeletons and their ilk are not viable over the long run. Any non elite ghost can ruin the skeleton plan..a room full of them will make quick work of the lowly skeleton. And things do not get better with upgrades in evolution. I'm not sure there is anything that can be done about this but I wanted to mention it.
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Post by Variaz on Oct 22, 2008 0:44:37 GMT -5
Ok, took away Martial Arts blocking for Monsters, and made their hp bonus apply after the life bonus multipliers, thus making it less powerful but still good. Also applied this to Armored Health.
For balance issues, I'm also wondering if "humanoid" monsters should perhaps get lower base stats than essence monsters since they get more versatility and can get much higher skills due to levelables. It's ok to have higher stats to make up for the lack of abilities compared to normal races, but I think they should perhaps gain some lower stats and hp than essence monsters, since essence monsters will never be able to get as much skill points.
As for the Essences, I'm starting to rewrite it entirely to make something different than the current code which is based on Soul Bind.
What I have in mind ressembles this: - When you defeat a monster, it will generate an essence based on it's level and depth, average between both, and this will give it some bonus points. The average is used, because obviously, a level 100 small kobold shouldn't give the same bonus as a level 100 mature dragon! - Using these bonus points, the bonus will be spent on stats and bonus. How they will be spent will be influenced by the monster's stats and abilities. For example, a monster with very high stats and other powers will have more chances of these bonus being spent on these stats and powers, especially on the highest ones. There will also be a chance that the bonus remains unassigned, and therefore tweakable. Obviously, monsters with less bonus will have more chance of this occuring. However, it will not be impossible for big monsters to get skill points, nor impossible for weaker ones to get good stats. So it will bring more variety, and since lower level enemies will produce weak essences, it will balance monsters early on. - Defeating special kind of enemies such as elite, bosses and uniques will give these essences more points, so they will be stronger.
I suggest we do not use levelables for monster essences, as they would lose their flavor compared to normal items. With this, this makes them a mix of magic items, soul binds and crafted items, which is quite good I think.
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Post by Variaz on Oct 22, 2008 0:50:45 GMT -5
It seems to me after having played an 's' monster for a while, some monsters really just are not viable. The lack of an essence slot means they cant benefit from the possibility of getting an activation ability and the lack of magic that effects other undead (in particular 'G' type monsters) skeletons and their ilk are not viable over the long run. Any non elite ghost can ruin the skeleton plan..a room full of them will make quick work of the lowly skeleton. And things do not get better with upgrades in evolution. I'm not sure there is anything that can be done about this but I wanted to mention it. It depends how you play them. Obviously, they are humanoid, so they shouldn't use the same strategies. They can, and should equip levelable items. Since their evolutions gains mostly dark attacks, Inner Elemental Mastery is a great choice, not only for damages increase, but also for resistances piercing against ghosts and other undeads. That means you should also focus on the skeleton's dark attacks, and combat feats would be a good option. My little naga had poison attacks, and with the ability, still used them to kill ghosts. Skeletons can do the same, and better, since they have actual dark immunity. EDIT: All right, I just checked, they can't do that until level 20. It's true that at first, Ghosts are going to own them, and it's definitely best to run. For the spells, however, I am seriously considering enabling normal casting for monsters, for some reasons that you said, and also because I see many interesting possibilities myself.
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Post by Variaz on Oct 30, 2008 22:32:08 GMT -5
I have implemented the "Main Essence" idea. Basically, if you are an essence monster, or are unarmed, the first essence slot will give you special bonus. For one, it will replace your normal attack by it's own base damages and elemental types, determined randomly based on the attacks of the monster that you killed. This will allow any monsters to eventually get very good base attack damages, regardless if you're playing a powerful monster or a small monster, so Mirror Ball fans can rejoice, their favorite monster can now equip powerful essences to boost their melee power! Note that you can use 'K' to toggle this feature off if you'd prefer using your natural attacks instead. The main essence also acts like the newly improved rods, and it will add it's damages to the base power of your spells, essence activations and innate magic attacks, so essence monsters will too benefit from the new magic improvements! Other changes that I made: - As I mentionned in the Overview thread, I have rewritten the Essences system. Further modifications now gives base damages to essences, based on the defeated monster's attacks. It chooses one of the attacks randomly, and apply it's damages and elemental type to the essence. The damages also receives a boost based on the creature's depth and level, and elite/boss/unique/nightmare status. Some testings revealed the essences to be a lot more varied now. Much weaker in the beginning, but they get stronger as the game progress, ultimately becoming quite good. More testing as an essence monster will be required though. Another thing: the code for essences generation is entirely made in lua now. So you'll be able to add your own tweaks to it. - A slight nerf of Inner Elemental Mastery. It is now 10% of your total resistance instead of 25%, making it on par with the Elemental Lord's Elemental Mastery in terms of damages. 25% was too much, since only 4 points resulted in double damages, and made monsters with elemental attacks vastly superior overall to those without. Considering that it boosts any types of attacks, that it's both a damages enhancer AND resistances piercer, that small monsters can now get high base damages through the main essence and that you have much higher base stats than regular races, I think it's fair to tone down this ability a bit. It actually makes it on par with most damages enhancers. +25% per points really was too much. Well, with all these changes, along with item tweaking changes regarding blows costs and other stuff mentionned in the Overview thread, I believe we may be close to getting a much more balanced monster race. I will now play an essence monster, and see how it goes with the new essences tweaks.
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T10
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Post by T10 on Nov 23, 2009 9:20:55 GMT -5
I tried a Banshee singer. It is great:) About essences: I can't make them levelable by scroll. Is it a feature? Or just a bug? A levelable essence could be fun...
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Post by Variaz on Nov 26, 2009 18:57:56 GMT -5
Essences are not levelable. But you can find better essences by defeating stronger enemies.
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Post by T10 on Dec 17, 2009 6:16:38 GMT -5
Today, my lvl32 wailing spirit, Siriel, killed a lvl127 boss of essence in the bottom of the Flow. It worth 1365 Xp for her. It was a long battle, 6 hours irl. Fortunately, the boss was a melee monster. First, Siriel cast a r1 woods and a r7 web. Then she waited a long time, and replaced the missing web. The boss' move reduced to -70 from the original +60. Siriel's speed was 121 at this time. Then she stood and sing... a lot. Surely she was raucous, lastly:) She jumped a 7' every time the boss reached her. Melee monsters mostly has a weak mental and magic skill. This one has a sum of 500 blocking power. Around one-in-five, he sucked the 1.700.000. hp piercing song of Siriel. It was enough to exceed his regenerating powers. Barely. Meantime the boss' movement lowered to -110 by the web, then changed to 145 and the boss stopped.
The way thought the dungeon lvl47 to 87 was a harsh run, survived by the perfect use of 'summon trees' and 'reveal' spells - and some luck of course.
Two problem I found:
-Around -110 the monster's speed changed to 145 and the monster stopped. After it, he didn't move but his regeneration worked. -The macro I wrote didn't work after the monster was stopped. The original commands worked by keypress, and the macro existed in the list bud didn't work.
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Post by Variaz on Dec 17, 2009 10:06:00 GMT -5
Glad you've managed it, but it won't be so easy next release! To be honest, I don't think it should really be possible to beat depth 87 content at level 32. Of course, as a ghost, it's much easier, with the innate wall passing and many resistances, including physical and darkness, two very good resistances to have. Also, the monster generator is not really tuned for 80+ yet, so the monsters may be a little underpowered. In 0.4, it generates stronger monsters for depth 50+, to adjust to the new 50+ enemies, which are quite powerful.
I have already nerfed Grow Trees for 0.4, and trees you create yourself can now be destroyed by monsters. It's a roll between the monster's level and strength vs int+wis and Conjuration skill. It takes a turn for monsters to destroy them though, so creating a barrage of trees is still effective to slow down enemies and make an escape. However, it cannot be used for certain abuses anymore, such as move away, heal, return, etc... or to abuse webs.
Webs is something I might look into changing as well. Perhaps make it a bit more like the Ranger's Entangle ability. Webs, in most situations, are useless, unless you abuse it like you did. But since it took you so long, it's safe to say that overall, Webs is underpowered. So I might make it more balanced, so that it becomes more usable as a general spell, and less abusable. I don't really like permanent speed reduction, because there is no real way for monsters to recover from it. Alteration's Reduce Speed might be changed as well.
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T10
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Post by T10 on Dec 17, 2009 13:07:58 GMT -5
Never again. It was a pain.
In fact Siriel never killed a monster on lvl40 or deeper in any dungeon. They are block all with great power, have 10.000.000.+ hp, 6-8 lives, and 4-5 special ability, and can kill Siriel - or any lvl30 character - at sight. They are quite powerful. The key to survive is the speed and the scroll of teleportation - have enough time to teleport away when you are in a deadly situation after arrival. They can't see you, they can't kill you - the 'grow trees' is great to hide and escape. Fire can burn trees, but monsters never use their abilities out of line-of-sight. The levels of Flow are dense - a handicap for nearly all of adventurer, a great advantage for ghosts. In a normal dungeon, I never made it under lvl40. Agree with you about webs - useless in normal game, but great against bosses, in conjunction with a hiding method as the spell "grow trees".
You may add ability of "walking trough trees" to some animals - tiger or a flying insect for example.
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