Monsters strikes back!

[Variaz]

All right, so I've tried my new idea with the Giant Salamander. In the end, it really didn't solve anything. I still ended up with a lot of blows, even when treated as weight 40 and no bonus from the skill, and since all my melee attacks were fire-based and I'm immune to it, no fear from returnings and stuff. By level 17, he had 17 blows in each hands, so 34 blows due to bonus from Essences. At the same time, it was the first serious "monstrous", essence-based monster I played for a real game, outside of testing.

It was also one of the most boring character I ever played. By playing this character, I will have to agree with some of the points you guys reported, particularly about essences. I encountered several problems which, regardless of that "fix"(which didn't fix anything at all), I think essence monsters suffers:

1. Too Easy Early Game

Essences early on are just nasty. Either you get big stats bonus, or lesser ones but tons of tweak points to deal with that. They're even worse than soul binders and enchanters! But unlike soul binders who faces the challenge of capturing the souls, and enchanters who has to buy or find components, getting essences is a piece of cake. That, coupled with the monster's high stats and powerful abilities, made the early game ridiculously easy. Oh, and fire-based melee of this particular test was just icing on the cake. No fear from returnings! The occasional magic immune could be dealt with Power Punch. Inner Elemental Mastery just made big damages even bigger. And pierced fire-immunes. Yikes! The early game isn't very hard, but that's just going too far. It was WAY too easy.

2. Maximum Potential Reached

This character became more and more powerful....until I've reached the point where I had 13 essences. I used essences to get defense, agility and magic defense to high levels, got some high to_h and to_d, got some big stats from Greater Evolution and the essences, got more damages from Inner Elemental Energy....so big damages, big stats, good AC and good hp(about 50000). All that at level 17. But then I was like: "Ok...now what?". Other than a possible evolution to get more hp and even bigger damages, there was little more to do at this point. No items to level up. No fun abilities to raise or experiment with. All those cool items were forces to be sold for money that would have been used for...err, scrolls of object eternality I guess. At least, humanoid monsters got levelables and can use various weapon feats and stuff. This lizard was just no fun anymore.

3. Because normal races DO catch up.

Despite all this power, I opened my two recent normal characters, my zulgor elemental lord and my fun melee elemental spells monk. Both characters had a more challenging but much more fun beginning, and then by the time one got good blues and the other good souls, they were quite powerful by level 27-29, ready to undertake the challenge increase of depth 40+. I looked at their stats, and in both cases, were quite superior overall to the lizard. So, I used debug mode to level up my lizard from 17 to 27....and boy was I disappointed. I had full essences, yet it just wasn't on par with these two normal players, who were not only more challenging early on, but ended up becoming stronger and more versatile. I then tested the lizard at level 40, and decided to evolve in a Basilisk, which has really high stats. Big boost...yet, not that much superior to my zulgor, who was 11 levels lower. Of course, I could have gotten better essences, but that would have had the side effect of cutting my skills and lower the defensive skills. This is kind of a problem. Weak essences gives no AC but high skill points, while powerful essence have big AC but no skill points. But you need both to get high AC, and you also need magic defense. As espeorb pointed out, high hp and con will be moot if you don't have good defensive skills to back it up. In the end, there is only one type of essences that would work: Nightmare Essences. This super lizard decided to carry a couple of reds and met a Phantom of Misery. The lizard wasn't so super anymore, this thing just mercilessly slaughtered my poor lizard with endless summons and stats drains. Which brings us to the next problem...

4. Just how am I gonna deal with THAT?

From 40 and lower, enemies gets tougher. Multi-casters, extra lives, counters with high block rates, special abilities, crazy damages... This makes a lot of threats. But normal players have many options and strategies to deal with that, and clever combos can be devised. You can also grind your items. But essence monsters...well, they got raw power. All right. But not much else. Without much strategy options, many monsters are going to be painful to deal with, and it will only get worse as the game progress. And you can't hide forever, sooner or later you're going to have to face the quest bosses, which while so far they haven't been too bad, they WILL become nastier! Humanoid monsters aren't as bad, because they can level up items, use skills feats, alchemy, etc... But essence monsters...


In the end, I'm disappointed, I thought the essences would be more fun, but it turned out that they aren't. Nerfing Martial Arts for monsters was NOT the solution, it didn't change anything at all. The problem is elsewhere, with essences, but also with versatility and challenge balance. And overall fun.

[Gando]

In the end, I'm disappointed, I thought the essences would be more fun, but it turned out that they aren't. Nerfing Martial Arts for monsters was NOT the solution, it didn't change anything at all. The problem is elsewhere, with essences, but also with versatility and challenge balance. And overall fun.

I have to disagree...playing an essence monster is a different experience than playing other character types. Part of the fun is in discovery and this still exists. And while it is true they peak earlier and do not scale up as well as normal characters they still can be fun. It would a little nicer if the evolutions were more logical (and not based on the arbitrary angbandbased depths) but thats not here nor there imho. Essences do need some balancing. For one thing I like tweak points but hate the fact they dont level. I like the variety of different essences possible but hate finding the same things on them once I know what Im looking for. Id like them to be more dynamic. Have a RANGE of abilities, not guaranteed that you will find a 35 point essence with a Fireball spell and +15int/wis on Orc Great Shamans. If instead you found the equivelent of purples/blues (Some tweak points and random stats/abilities attached ---ones selected based on the type of monster of course, thinks would be interesting.)

The one other thing that Monsters lack is spell capability. Not being able to use spells from books at all really reduces your power in that area to a very rigidly (if entirely arbitrary) defined structure. The key spells I look for when spelunking normally are (in no particular order): Missile, Lifeblast, Haste, Heal, Restore Stats/Status, Satisfy Hunger, Summon Specific Kind, Detect spells, Identify. These are the most useful to any adventurer. Of those monsters get access to missile, summon specific and heal typically. Non essense monsters get none of those and instead have to rely solely on levelables which might be the saner route anyway.

[Frumple]

I'd like to comment more in depth, but my brain's kinda' fried right now. I would like to say, V, that most of the issues you brought up for a raw essence monster now are the same ones unequippable monsters have had all along, just exaggerated in some areas (Early strength is greater, 'bottoming out' seems to happen much later than it used to.). There's definately some issues, but hey, it's a new feature and pretty game-changing for quite a few builds, so that's no big surprise, right?

Don't feel discouraged, though -- your changes have made major steps toward some sort of right direction. As someone who's played monsters fairly often in the older versions, these new fellahs are an incredible improvement. Essence casting alone (Though it's a little awkward, key-press wise. Is there any way to, say, tie available essence spells into the 'p' menu or something, so they're all in one place? Macros help a little, but it's not uncommon to switch out essences fairly often as better ones come along, so it can get a little annoying.) has massively improved monster monster's versitility, the new abilities are just wonderful (I have rarely been so happy to turn pink.), and overall monsters are a lot more competitive than they used to be -- especially the smaller critters.

Toward Gando's comments, I'd definately like to see some more variance in the essences, if it were possible. It doesn't seem meet that a particular monster spits out the exact same essence at level 5 as it does at level 50, and that there's no difference between an elite, normal, or boss essence. Uniques and questors (Well, just questors, I guess. I don't seem to see uniques anymore...) feel a little wanting, too -- they tend to have nice stats, and occasionally an awesome spell, but that's nothing some random dungeon crawler can't pull off. My G-monster's really sad he's not wearing Quazar and Simon's essences, simply because they're being overshadowed by something else (In this case, 20 points or more of M.Def or Agility, heh.).

As for utility spells, maybe something similar to Ent's Potion over in ToME could start spreading to monsters -- stuff that has an immediate buff effect that would benefit a non-PC, but also has some sort of utility effect (Satisfy Hunger, Detection, Pack ID, etc.).

[Gando]

To add a further note to what Frumple said (who appears more or less on the same page as myself) the weaknesses to the tune of -25% are complete deterrants to ever equipping those essences, (though actually with the way Resists/Weaknesses seem bugged it might be moot.) I for one avoid anything that may cause sudden death (hence I do not generally keep reds) as I am already my own worst enemy with my combo of a)fumble fingers and b) occasional wandering attention span.

I have found myself running head first into mirror balls (DESPITE having the warning of the combat feats (jump?) to tell me Im about to die) alot. Now you cant debug me so we are stuck with smoothing the gameplay and interface as much as possible.

-25% light weakness might seem silly to worry bout since how many angels do you meet that want to kill you but its really actually pretty bad if you play a celestial caster. And it gets worse if you play a monster caster with Light element.

The only thing I have found that offsets that penalty is the fun cloak Cedrik wears. However thats a rather late game solution (for now) for most characters.

I said this about Soul Binding and Ill repeat it about Essences since they seem to share their bonuses in common. Monster resists/weaknesses should be on par with each other. If you give +5 Dark Resist% then the weakness should be similar (-5% light weakness).

[Variaz]

Adding randomness to essences based on the original monsters seems like a good idea, as is giving higher bonus for higher level monsters, elites and bosses.

I'd say we scrap custom skill points early on completely, since it makes the early game too easy(especially those +20 and higher...). On the other hand, as Gando suggested, we could allow purple and blue essences(that could be the benefit of elites and boss essences, like regular items), which would give a couple skill points and then by the time you get blue, now you get the custom skill points but since it wouldn't be until about level 20 you'd start finding them, that would make the early game more challenging.

Another thing. In the end, my proposed change, except for the blows nerf, wasn't really fun or useful. Perhaps monsters could equip a "main" essence that would replace their natural normal attack and act like a weapon. That main essence could be purple and get damages bonus, and later blue to gain levels and more attack powers. This way, all monsters could get equal base damages, and even the "no attack" monsters like Mirror Balls could get a good melee attack if the player wants so. It would also make essence hunting more fun. Hidden artifact essences? Could be fun too!

[Gando]

Another thing. In the end, my proposed change, except for the blows nerf, wasn't really fun or useful. Perhaps monsters could equip a "main" essence that would replace their natural normal attack and act like a weapon. That main essence could be purple and get damages bonus, and later blue to gain levels and more attack powers. This way, all monsters could get equal base damages, and even the "no attack" monsters like Mirror Balls could get a good melee attack if the player wants so. It would also make essence hunting more fun. Hidden artifact essences? Could be fun too!

This is incomprehensible to me.

[Variaz]

Basically:
- We allow Essences to become magical, like items.
- Essences would have no more customizable skill points naturally, but could be allowed to become levelables later on. This way, it would balance them early on, while making them more competitive later.
- The first essence you equip could be used like a weapon to replace your main natural attack, allowing any monsters to eventually get a good melee attack, even Mirror Ball. This feature could be turned on/off through "K" if you'd prefer to use your natural attack instead.

[Gando]

- The first essence you equip could be used like a weapon to replace your main natural attack, allowing any monsters to eventually get a good melee attack, even Mirror Ball. This feature could be turned on/off through "K" if you'd prefer to use your natural attack instead.

Ah ok. That sounds ok...but it only applies to those monsters who don't have weapon slots, right?

About the tweak points, that is sure a shame...most fun part of collecting essences was spending the points once I found a good one.

[jarthak]

I think it would be interesting if essences were a new type of levelled item where it starts out with a level equal to the depth of the monster killed and it could later be evolved in the same way the monsters themselves can.

[Variaz]

Oct 17, 2008 23:45:58 GMT -5 Gando said:

- The first essence you equip could be used like a weapon to replace your main natural attack, allowing any monsters to eventually get a good melee attack, even Mirror Ball. This feature could be turned on/off through "K" if you'd prefer to use your natural attack instead.

Ah ok. That sounds ok...but it only applies to those monsters who don't have weapon slots, right?

About the tweak points, that is sure a shame...most fun part of collecting essences was spending the points once I found a good one.

Indeed, only to the monsters without weapon slots. It would use the one in the "A" slot.

It's true that essences having a different leveling system did give them flavor. But let's face it, it IS too powerful early on. It's like an enchanter that doesn't have to raise Crafting skill.

On the other hand, we could come up with something different for sure. The important is that we don't come up with +12 or even +20 at like level 5 or 10.

I think it would be interesting if essences were a new type of levelled item where it starts out with a level equal to the depth of the monster killed and it could later be evolved in the same way the monsters themselves can.

Hmmm, so that the bonus increases by 5% per levels, instead of gaining tweak points? That would be good, but we'd have to come up with some form of customization. Otherwise, it's not very fun.

[Frumple]

Oct 18, 2008 0:25:45 GMT -5 Variaz said:

Oct 17, 2008 23:45:58 GMT -5 Gando said:

Hmmm, so that the bonus increases by 5% per levels, instead of gaining tweak points? That would be good, but we'd have to come up with some form of customization. Otherwise, it's not very fun.

Random ideas? Feed the essences to each other. Stuff enough of a similar family essence into your chosen essence to 'upgrade' it -- tweak points are gained, stats increased, and maybe something special, like gaining a random spell from the next essence you feed into it.

Or maybe just the option to 'eat' essences, giving the monster some kind of resource pool it can use to enhance its essences. Kinda' like an alternate gold, for essence improvement or something.

It'd kinda' fit for the more visceral kill-for-power cycle essence-monsters have going for them, maybe.

[jarthak]

I think if an essence provided 20% of the stats a monster of the same level would possess then I think they would start off weak enough that you could still have 2 tweak points per level. Some other aspects of my suggestion would be that an elite essence would start 10% higher (minimum +1 level) and a boss essence would start 20% higher (minimum +2 levels).

[Frumple]

A question -- is there any way to increase the duration of the summon spells monsters can use (beyond just editing the r_info file)? Any way to aim them so your minions show up somewhere besides right on top of you?

The times I've used summoned critters as a monster, thus far, have been pretty uninspiring -- can't drop them on the enemy (like they do to you), they don't last very long, and enemies generally ignore them and come after you (which isn't exactly a bad thing, per-se.)

Duration is the probably the biggest thing -- being able to aim your summons would be another major help for pure summoners (or summon users in general.). Failing that, maybe there's a fair opportunity for a leadership ability that calls your allies to a targeted point, or something along those lines.

[Variaz]

By placing points in a summon spell, you should be able to increase it's duration and power. But no, you can't target them right now, they appear around you.

Though if you could target monsters and summons appeared arounf them, I wonder if it wouldn't be a bit too strong if your charisma/leadership is high and you summon powerful enemies... Though perhaps it wouldn't be that bad... It wouldn't be very useful against packs anyway, so...

Plus, we don't want another Restless Dead party scenario! ;D
(http://variaz.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=bugreports&action=display&thread=640 , if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

Too bad RDs aren't summonable anymore, I kinda like this monster for some reasons. Oh well, the Unholy Champion will have to do.

[Frumple]

Summon's power, yah, duration, not so much. A necromancer's skeletons (skelemages were what I was watching) disappeared after the same amount of time (12 waits with a 40 speed necromancer) with no points in the spell as they did with 50. Made me sad, heh.

The other parts (power and number summoned) seems to be working fine, though.

Actually, in the help file's description, it only mentions status effecting spells (haste, etc), not summons. Oh well...