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Post by Variaz on Oct 12, 2008 18:45:26 GMT -5
Well, pretty much all what you pointed out was true, except that the whole race has been completely revamped. And it's coming in the next upload. So discussing the former system is a bit pointless at this points, since many flaws such as life/con being useless, Fighting having no effects and stuff are all gone.
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Post by Gando on Oct 13, 2008 8:11:43 GMT -5
Um ok that was the question I asked: So you are certain that fighting works in the new system? That was the point of saying all that. Now that you say so we can move on.
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grindorin
Champion
Das Haenchen lebt.
Posts: 151
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Post by grindorin on Oct 14, 2008 13:18:30 GMT -5
I have a question about the 'Inner Elemental Mastery' ability. How does that affect dual-type attacks? A Mud Golem has two natural attacks that deal 'Mud' damage (a combination of Earth and Water types). It has 100% resistance to Earth, so if I choose Earth for that ability, will it boost the Mud attacks by 25% per point, or half the normal amount? (I'm guessing half, so it would behave similar to resistances and dual-types.)
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Post by Variaz on Oct 14, 2008 14:42:27 GMT -5
Actually, it's not half, having 100% resistance to Earth has no effects on Mud.
Yeah, I've noticed this. Probably I'll add a Mud resistance to the Mud Elemental.
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Post by zekk on Oct 14, 2008 15:21:10 GMT -5
So, essence spells use spellcraft, right?
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Post by Variaz on Oct 14, 2008 15:24:14 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by Gando on Oct 14, 2008 15:27:18 GMT -5
A note to the wise...you can not level Essences. I tried with the reward scroll from completing the Jindar quests. Funny how all those rewards seem great when you can equip items but seem utterly useless otherwise. Sadly selling them doesnt even help since gold is useless to monsters after the first few thousand. (get scrolls of id, satisfy hunger, teleport and recall and thats all you will need/be able to use.)
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Post by Variaz on Oct 14, 2008 15:35:56 GMT -5
It is still useful for humanoid or semi-humanoid monsters though.
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grindorin
Champion
Das Haenchen lebt.
Posts: 151
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Post by grindorin on Oct 14, 2008 16:37:54 GMT -5
Hmm, I thought I seen it posted elsewhere that resistance to the parts of the dual-type elements would reduce part of the damage from such attacks. Example: If you have 100% earth resistance and 0% water resistance, you would take 50% damage from mud-type attacks. However, resistance to 'mud' would not provide any protection from earth or water attacks.
I seem to recall that being the explanation for 'Grey' anyways. I will look around and see if I'm just remembering wrong.
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Post by Gando on Oct 14, 2008 16:42:47 GMT -5
Is there a reason why dragons do not get flying as an ability? There is no way they can equip items so they can't do the Ivahala quests. I am wondering if this is an oversight or is there an actual reason for it? I understand that the Monster class is in general not part of the main game but this officially makes them unable to do the main questline.
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Post by Frumple on Oct 14, 2008 17:30:04 GMT -5
Have to go back to studying now, but I took an hour off to give the new monsters a spin and... wow. I just finished slaughtering off the Udor invasion with my Heat Wolf -- walked up the town hall stairs at level 9, killed off the last orc at level 13.
It was almost silly -- that level 9 wolf could one-round-kill the champions. I'm not sure if he coulda' taken a hit from 'em or not (Still, 6.8k HP, 2.8k AC, M.Def of 36... doggy's pretty buff for this point in the game.), though... I think the only thing that actually hit me was a few assassins. The big boys got led into v-tunnels in the forest or around corners. The +12 speed helped, there.
The new abilities are top notch, I think, though I've been investing pretty randomly and haven't unlocked the 6+ abilities. Essences are kinda' weird, especially the tweakable ones -- how many points they allow you seems pretty random. The inn-quest rats gave 5 points, (I filled my slots with those, mostly boosting Arts, M.Def, and agility.) while random things (Elf Bandits gave 12 (and a dex boost), Large Grey Ants 8 (And str/dex boost, rConf, and rFear), for example) gave more, even when they were considerably more powerful than some of the lower-point monsters. The great orc shamans were wonderful -- 35 tweak points, on top of thier stat boost, activatable abilities, and to_hit/dam boost (Higher than the champions!).
I think essences (especially for full-slot monsters, like my wolf) may be a bit rediculous early game. Despite not having put any points in strength or dex, nor boosting them with tweaked items, my wolf has 64/59, respectively. That's a little crazy for a 13th level character, isn't it? (Maybe not -- the 14th dragon in the char-build section is even more buff, though it admitadly ran more random dungeons than I did...) I've got above 35 in all the above mentioned skill points, too... and a good chunk of uninvested points laying around, to boot.
Not sure how they're going to stack up later, though...
Points, points.... summation, argh!
The tweakpoints may/may not be wonky. There certainly doesn't seem to be a consistant pattern to them at first blush, though I definately haven't been paying too terribly much attention. How do they work, exactly? (If I may ask, heh.)
Early game is incredible. Monsters are now incredible. Three cheers for change!
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Post by Variaz on Oct 14, 2008 17:34:20 GMT -5
Is there a reason why dragons do not get flying as an ability? There is no way they can equip items so they can't do the Ivahala quests. I am wondering if this is an oversight or is there an actual reason for it? I understand that the Monster class is in general not part of the main game but this officially makes them unable to do the main questline. The smaller dragons don't have the flying ability. The matures do, but I'll probably add it for the youngs as well. You bring a very good point here. I'll enable at least climbing for monsters, so they at least do the Ivhala quests. This means a fix update soon.
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Post by Variaz on Oct 14, 2008 17:42:42 GMT -5
Well, I did some calculations, and perhaps the melee power of monsters will have to be nerfed. It's just crazy.
Here's a boring but necessary math post:
Level 40 Mature Prismatic Dragon, 400 strength, 200 Martial Arts.
Greater Evolution 10, Inner Elemental Mastery 10, Paragon 10 and Solar Claw 10.
Normal dam: 641421 - 10262775
With Solar Claw(combat feat):
Average: 5452098 + 200% = 16356294 +250%(mastery) = 57247029 *2(Paragon double dam) = 114494058 per blows. Max: 10262775 + 200% = 30788325 +250% = 107759137 *2 = 215518274.
Solar Claw(not combat feat):
Average: 5452098*10 = 54520980 + 250% = 190823430*2 = 381646860 Max: 10262775*10 = 102627750 + 250% = 359197125*2 = 718394250
Extreme damages...at only 40. And no wacky combo or anything, just leveling the right abilities. Yes, Portralis is extreme. Yes, dragons are supposed to be strong. But that much damages at that level? That's too much. I think that perhaps Inner Elemental Mastery should give 10% per points for a 100% resistance, just like the Elemental Lord's mastery. Being both a mastery AND Piercing Spells ability, I think it's fair. Plus, the melee specials should probably be about 10% per points for combat feats, and +20% for normal use. I mean, you already get radius(awesome!!) and increased accuracy, and +20%/points no less. So a damages nerf seems fair. Plus, nerfing is a big words. It's actually on par with many, many normal races abilities.
And then as Frumple pointed, essences are a biy crazy, especially early on, and should perhaps be toned down a bit. That and perhaps base stats gains(although perhaps not too much, Monsters should have higher base stats than normal races).
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Post by Variaz on Oct 14, 2008 19:21:37 GMT -5
So for more mathematical mayhem, let's see what the nerfs do: Same dragon, 400 str and 200 Martial Arts. In the previous post, I forgot to add the extra 5d10 to base damages, which raise the average damages to 6689128. So! 6689128 +100% = 13378256 +100% = 26756512*2 = 53513024 Well, still kinda strong, and that's not taking into account strength-boosting essences you probably have. If you want to add about 300 strength from essences... 16058944 + 100% = 32117888 +100% = 64235776 * 2 = 128471552. Probably still too strong. I was fine with the 50000000 because at depth 40-45, there are already monsters with about 10000000 hp(elites and bosses mostly), plus it IS possible for normal races to get that or at least close, so I'm not TOO worried. But 100000000+, now that's kind of big. For level 40 at least. I suggest we do the following changes: - Lower Inner Mastery to 10%, like the Elemental Lord's ability(you did apply the fix for the 10%, right? ) - Lower the gains for monster melee moves to 10% per points like most abilities, and 20% when used alone. - Halve the power of the stats boosters. Monsters already gain high base stats and have good bonus from essences. - Perhaps lower the power of essences a bit. Not too much, but maybe by a third or something. In the end, you will still be very strong. But a little more balanced. I don't think any of these changes are overnerfs, and should make the game more balanced.
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Post by Gando on Oct 15, 2008 7:17:47 GMT -5
This is the sort of nerf I wish youd accomplished privately and before releasing the monsters to us. I did not get an overwhelming sense of overpoweredness...by the time I hit level 25-30 my dragon was on par with my other characters and LESS versatile to boot. I do not think the nerf is necessary but if it is I think you are targeting it wrong. The essenses do not need an overall nerfing they need balance. So that when you get them you do not necessarily discard 75% of them as useless which is what I did mostly with my dragon who needed lots. With a humanoid who gets none it would be moot. Also I think you should run your calculations for the various major types of monsters before changing the numbers. The nerfs are bound to make some types unplayable again.
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