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Post by sekira on Apr 17, 2008 17:46:33 GMT -5
Now, I'm putting this here because I don't have a suggestion per se, more like some questions.
First off, I love how ranged weapons now have ammo capacity and reloding time, etc. I also like that they are used in the same slot as melee.
I guess I'm wondering how long reloading takes for each type of weapon.
I'm also wondering if there is any reason to use a crossbow over a firearm? Even if you have a heavy crossbow (x5 damage) vs a combat pistol (x3 damage) the ammos do approximately 3 times the damage for firearms... and they can shoot at least 3 times before reload, unlike crossbows. Do firearms aggrivate when you shoot? Where is the downside? I get the benefit of bows, no reload, can arc shoot, etc. I don't see any benefit of crossbows. The fact that you can use returning bolts seems pretty sad compared to all the damage benefits and multiple ammos of firearms.
Also, I think the magic bullets ability of the gunner is broken, I think when the timer ends it doesn't make the whole stack go away, instead it just reduces the number by 1, leaving the rest of the stack as permanent bullets, that you got for free. Now you can remove them and sharpen them (I think) and maybe even read scrolls of magic item over them... (not sure about that either). And they do mana type damage (unresistable by almost all enemies) that is never returned... ever.
And don't even get me started on immolating shots... half you damage as a permanent fire field? How much mana would that cost as a spell? I think 100,000 damage for a decent firearm with sharpened shots and a good skill is quite doable by level 25... so a 50,000 damage fire field for 0 mana... all you have to do is hit. and since gunners focus on dex. No problem hitting the weak stuff, and the field will kill the big stuff.
That brings up another question. Does piercing spells affect field damage?
hmm. I think I'm gonna make a gunner.
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Post by Variaz on Apr 18, 2008 8:51:58 GMT -5
Reload always takes one turn. I'm gonna answer your question quite honestly: right now, guns are better than crossbows. I honnestly cannot think of any advantages of using a crossbow over a gun. Guns have better ammos, better Fire ability(Immolating Shot is much better than Charged Shot), more variety, one-handed and two-handed weapons, can easily be paired with melee due to one-handed pistols and higher base damages, meaning lower need for skills investment... Things are going to get even worse once I make the Mystic Archer, Nimbraya's answer to Karingen's Gunner, which will provide good support for bow users. Bows already have the advantage of no reload, metal bows that allow parry(big advantage, since ranged attackers have high dex) and Arc Shooting(very summon-friendly ability). Now they'll get to merge their arrows with Mysticism spells. The future of crossbows is bleak... And I'm not sure how to save them.  Actually, they should do Missile damages. That they don't disappear seems to be a bug though. You're not supposed to be able to remove them either. Sharpen could work though, Magic Item scroll too(but that's kind of pointless, since they're supposed to disappear). Is it half? Thought it was 25%... Anyway, damages can probably be lowered, and I could make elemental fields just like webs. That is, they disappear, or at least have a chance to, when a monster walks on them. I believe so. |
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Post by sekira on Apr 18, 2008 10:13:49 GMT -5
Yep it is missile. But honestly, if the damage is boosted by weapon skill and stats, I think missile is better. The reason it is not that good as a spell is because spellcraft and elemental skills don't boost the physical side, so you in essence get half damage. If the damage is boosted by ranged skill and dex, then you get a powerful attack that is always going to do damage, as both physical and magic immune enemies can't stop it. That and ranged attacks never return physical or magic damage, so this is a totally safe form of damage at range.
I have some ideas that might balance things a little (though it still won't totally balance things)
1. When you fire a firearm it should create an effect like reading a scroll of aggrivate monsters (causes a one round aggrivation effect I believe).
I think it should also remove the effects of invisibility for that one turn. I'm not saying it should turn off timed invisibilty, just that for that round, the invisibility doesn't protect you at all. This second anti-invisibilty effect isn't as important as the aggrivation effect though.
2. bolts should break 10% of the time, instead of 25% like arrows. They are heavier, so they should be tougher.
3. Increase the damage multiplier of existing crossbows a little (10 to 20% is all), and add some additional crossbows:
EDIT: I realize that the item numbers (N:###) overlap with other items, but I didn't want to take the time to find open item numbers. It is just a suggestion, and if it is accepted, then we can find item numbers for the new crossbows.
The Repeating crossbows are historical, they had a magazine above the firing groove, and used either a sliding pump mechanism or lever mechanism to quickly redraw the string and also drop another bolt down from the magazine. The time was similar if not shorter than the time for a bow. They were, however, slightly weaker in their draw strength and damage.
The Clockwork crossbow is a crossbow that uses springs and gears to autoload the bolts like the repeating crossbows do, but with greater force and damage. since it is gear driven, it can be one handed.
The dragon crossbow and licialhyd power dragon crossbow are similar to the clockwork crossbow, but instead of using gears to autodraw the string, it used magical power to do so, and they have an autoteleport magical mechanism that reloads the bolts directly from the ammo slot.
Now before you go saying "those damage multipliers are as high as the pistols! its too powerful!" remember that bolts are MUCH weaker than bullets or rounds.
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Post by Gando on Apr 18, 2008 10:16:22 GMT -5
Yep it is missile. But honestly, if the damage is boosted by weapon skill and stats, I think missile is better. The reason it is not that good as a spell is because spellcraft and elemental skills don't boost the physical side, so you in essence get half damage. If the damage is boosted by ranged skill and dex, then you get a powerful attack that is always going to do damage, as both physical and magic immune enemies can't stop it. That and ranged attacks never return physical or magic damage, so this is a totally safe form of damage at range. I have some ideas that might balance things a little (though it still won't totally balance things) 1. When you fire a firearm it should create an effect like reading a scroll of aggrivate monsters (causes a one round aggrivation effect I believe). Correct me if Im wrong but Aggravation turns pets into foes right? |
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Post by sekira on Apr 18, 2008 10:19:54 GMT -5
Hmm, thats not what I had in mind... but it might not be a bad effect either... I mean, firearms are just so friggen powerful! and in real life, it takes lots of training for any animal not to just bolt and run away when they hear a gunshot right next to them. If the animal is a carnivor, then I would guess they might just attack instead of run.
EDIT: Hmm, I guess that doesn't take into account mindless pets like golems or animated knight, and it also doesn't take into account intelligent pets, like humans or humanoids... not sure about this after all.
I still really like the changes to the crossbows in k_info.txt and the lower breakage for bolts...
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Post by sekira on Apr 18, 2008 11:26:12 GMT -5
Ok, I just tested it, and a ring of aggravate monster does turn pets hostile to you.
Maybe there is a way that firing a firearm could wake monsters and alert them to your location, but not turn friendlies hostile...
EDIT: Isn't there a Disturb() function? I mean, firing a firearm should be about 10 times as disturbing to sleeping monsters as taking a step, I think that would be a fair way to help balance them.
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Post by Variaz on Apr 18, 2008 13:19:23 GMT -5
It wouldn't make much of a difference, except very early in the game. Later on, you'll notice that there aren't many sleeping enemies. Elites and Bosses are always awake. In fact, even in the beginning there's a lot of awakened monsters.
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Post by Gando on Apr 18, 2008 21:54:08 GMT -5
I dont recall ever finding a sleeping mob. The only mobs that dont move on los are jellies and other immobiles. So the whole disturbed thing is already taken care of...perhaps instead it summons mobs to the general area.
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Post by sekira on Apr 19, 2008 9:11:40 GMT -5
Well, I still think some kind of disturbing would work. I hardly ever run accross sleeping mobs too, but then I never play a stealthy character. My concern is for stealthy characters... I don't think their stealth (and maybe even their invisibility) should work very well when they are firing firearms... They shold be forced to choose bows or crossbows or throwing.
Doesn't that make sense? A ranged attack and stealthyand invisible character is already so powerful... You can stand back shooting, while your enemies don't even know where you are.
Here is what I propose. It should disturb (maybe most stuff is already awake anyway, but lets just make sure, ok?) and it should reduce the power of your invisibility by some amount. If your invisibility was already weak enough to go to 0 power, then it turns off the invisibility altogether. What do you guys think?
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Post by Gando on Apr 19, 2008 9:46:43 GMT -5
I think what I meant is Stealth seems obsolete in this game...anyone have input as to whether this is true?
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Post by Variaz on Apr 19, 2008 11:32:05 GMT -5
It's actually much better than you think. With enough points, enemies does ignore you, and don't annoy you. I've noticed that they still use ranged attacks and spells without any problems, but this is an oversight on my end, the code doesn't check for Stealth with ranged attacks and spells.
And of course, Stealth has a class dedicated to it.
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Post by challtdow on Apr 19, 2008 21:16:43 GMT -5
I've played a stealthy character a time or two and you see alot more sleeping enemies with them, but still not alot. What V says about them ignoring you is true though. I've gotten so annoyed at a pack of C's that I had to chase all over a big room because I'm too stealthy for them to chase me. At really high stealth, it seems that only bosses and elites see you. Everything else just wanders around till you poke them 500 times with your dagger.
Chall T. Dow
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