Gameplay -- Underpowered (alpha 2)

[Variaz]

Things you think are underpowered in terms of classes, skills, etc...

Leadership skill doesn't count due to Monsters vs Monsters battles being bugged.

[Gando]

I am finding the new combat system too hard for rogue play. Perhaps there is some trick I am missing but having died 4x in 7 levels I am about to call it quits. Losing items has made it too hard to continue. (Yet again.)

Randomly died to a one hitting Young Salamander on level 3...(I was level 6 at the time.) Have tofight with Water Wall as my weapon (for the brand) since I lost my only weapon worth anything. Seems like I could probably sit for a couple hours trying to scum the Blackmarket for a decent weapon but that just is counter productive and UNFUN.

I should note I mean as a Rogue. I am sure if I were to cross classes it would be more viable but that shouldn't be necessary. It should be survivable using just the skills/abilities it has available.

[Variaz]

Can you post your build?

[Gando]

Just assume a normal rogue build... (all dex except one level of con, 10pts agi the rest in stealth, all points in stealthy fighter.)

I will note that after that post I did go awhile before dying again, managing to refind some more items that were usable but I have to say that Young Sal out of nowhere with the 1 shot kill really got on my nerves.

[Variaz]

Here's your mistake: no Magic Defense. And perhaps Con was a little too low.

Defense, Agility and Magic Defense are more mandatory to survival than any other skills in the game, and neglecting one is asking for trouble.

All classes have a two stats focus: a primary damage stat(Strength for Warriors and Fighters, Dexterity for Rogues and Marksmen, Intelligence for Mages and Wisdom for Monks), and Constitution. Yes, Constitution is considered a must, even for mages and rogues, which is something that is different from some other games.

So technically, a normal Rogue build should go like this:

Stats: Dexterity and Constitution. (and you do need both stats)
Skills: Stealth, Defense, Agility and Magic Defense. The three defensive skills are required for ALL classes, not just Rogues.

Part of the problem I think is that it may be unclear early on that you do need those skills, and that constitution is required for all builds as well. Maybe we need to find a way to encourage players to raise those attributes.

[Gando]

Actually no, I did have 10points of MD which I forgot about.

[Gando]

I think instead of requiring con just increase it by one every level if it is really mandatory.

[Gando]

Afaik Defense isn't a good skill unless you wear armor to take advantage of it. Being a nonfighter armor isn't exactly the Rogue's priority (in fact I would assume heavier armors would impede their skills thus they get main gauche to block with.)

[Variaz]

Apr 19, 2011 20:57:26 GMT -5 Gando said:

Afaik Defense isn't a good skill unless you wear armor to take advantage of it. Being a nonfighter armor isn't exactly the Rogue's priority (in fact I would assume heavier armors would impede their skills thus they get main gauche to block with.)

Early on, no, Defense isn't a Rogue's priority, although it does help a bit(you can buy a soft armor with base ac 11, which is good early on, plus it's only the armor that affects Stealth, you can still get helms, boots, etc...). But later, you get some descent soft armors, such as the Viper Mail with a base ac of 30, or the Drake Robes(harder to get since you have to kill drakes...) I agree that it's less good for Rogues than Warriors/Fighters, but "less good" doesn't mean that it should be at 0. They still melee, after all.


Constitution every levels.... I don't know. I don't think requiring Con is silly, nor requiring defensive skills, from a roleplaying point of view. The "squishy rogue" and "squishy mage" archetypes works well in many games, since you often have a party and so you can have one bulky warrior taking the hits while rogues and mages deal damage to enemies. However, here, you're a solo adventurer. You deal with the enemies, alone, and powerful ones at that. So you CANNOT be squishy. As a solo adventurer, learning to defend yourself against a variety of attacks is a must.

[Gando]

Yeah the squishy part is what goes against my inate sense of what works...Obviously if the monsters are all going to be horrendously difficult melee artists then you have to be able to take a punch or 20. But I dislike a stealth specialist walking around in platemail *Clank* *Clank* *trips and falls, crashing loudly to the ground, whilst trying to hide in shadows* "Did the orcs hear that? Nah...deaf as doors them orcs."

But if this is what is required then I guess I will just take rogue class long enough to get access to the useful nondependant abilities (lockpicking/thievery and maybe blackmarket later after re-joining the class) and move on to a fighter class instead.

[Variaz]

Apr 20, 2011 1:33:46 GMT -5 Gando said:

But I dislike a stealth specialist walking around in platemail *Clank* *Clank* *trips and falls, crashing loudly to the ground, whilst trying to hide in shadows* "Did the orcs hear that? Nah...deaf as doors them orcs."

So do I, hence why I've made the Rogue to use soft armors rather than heavy armors.

I haven't had that much problems with the light armors. No, they aren't as strong as the heavy ones, but they do the job, and Defense is still useful. "Not as good" is not the same as "worthless".

[Gando]

4th rogue deleted due to losing ALL of his useful items to death yet again. Not sure I can play this class at all. Combat is just insane and doubly punishing if you fumble even a few keystrokes. Imagine a game where every other key press is missed. Not that I actually miss that many but its enough to make the game intolerably frustrating where as before it was playable after a few deaths here and there vs unavoidable circumstances. Guess this game is no longer for me.

[Variaz]

If losing items really annoys you, just go in the scripts folder, open "events.lua", and look for "no_more_items()". Then comment it, or delete the command. Better than not having fun.

I suppose you do have a point with death being particularly punishing for Rogues, since a lot of their passive bonus comes from the Thievery bonus on stolen items. This is something I hadn't really thought about when I made the ability, but it is a valid concern.

To be honest, at some points, I wondered about removing the item deletion penalty. After all, a "hardcore" player who wants perma-death is just going to retire his character after the first death to get the best score. And you still get a death count increase which makes your score lower as well.

It is something that I still have to think about, my main concern being the fact that you could carry a lot of valuable loot for profit for as long as you want, without any risks. Would make certain scumming tactics more viable as well, such as going down a dungeon too difficult for your level, but gather a few valuable pieces of equipment, and even if you die afterwards, you now have a nice weapon that you'll enchant later on.

[Gando]

I like in theory the idea that you lose your valuables when you die. (seems fitting and all) but in practice it really drags the game down. I can't tell you how many characters I have ended up deleting when they lost a favored piece that I had not the money to eternalize. The thing is there are certain points in the game where death becomes a mere inconvenience and others where it just wrecks everything. Hard to find a balancing factor that works to keep the game interesting and yet also fun.

I agree also that there are issues with scumming if you take out the death penalty. I don't think there is a solution. The REAL problem imho is the difficulty in raising a Rogue character up. (Though after deleting my last character I restarted and have managed to get to level 7 without dying yet, so some of it is just luck. (Or unlucky breaks, compounded.)

[Gando]

I think I mentioned this in Alpha 5.1 but the Heal spell is practically useless until you have wisdom enough to cast it at power 10 which is A LOT of wisdom for nonpriests. (78 without Mystic discounts which is at least level 20 and probably much higher even with wisdom bonuses from items.)

I tried making a power 2 heal (wisdom 10) and it just does nothing at all. Kind of a catch-22 there.


In fact all spell creation seems uber expensive now. Since power 9 and under spells don't work that pretty much takes out lower level mages as a possible class not to mention cross class casting.