Putting the "Rogue" back into Roguelike.

[Variaz]

Portralis, while being more like an RPG, is still a roguelike at heart. However, this "Rogue" is currently VERY underpowered, and downright useless in the current release. I'm looking at all 10 abilities, and NONE of them are good. Most abilities are either useless(Thievery), too situational(Backstabbing), too difficult to use for little effect(traps), and the class is just plain terrible overall.

So for the upcoming release, it will be redesigned.

The challenge with the Rogue is that depending on who you ask, you'll get a different vision of the class. Rogues can be many things. Some are thieves, other are stealthy assassins, you also have the swashbucklers, etc... So I've started creating a class that will reflect all these types of Rogues.

So far, I've thought up 4 abilities, and more will come. Here's a preview:

1. Stealthy Fighter(Passive, level 1)

Effect: Use your Stealth skill as a Fighting or Shooting skill.
% of Stealth used: 10%
Extra points: +10% of Stealth used, up to a maximum of 100% at 10 points.
For every points above 10, 10% of your Stealth is added to any
rolls to bypass enemy melee and ranged blocking counters.

This passive ability allows you to use your Stealth as a skill to improve
both your melee and shooting abilities, while retaining all the benefits of
the Stealth skill. Stealth is very useful to avoid being attacked by enemies,
and this ability will allow you to do that without hampering your ability
to deal damages.

Stealth is very nice to avoid enemies, but it comes at the cost of sacrificing damages. This ability, however, will allow you to make up for it. And it applies to melee AND ranged attacks! So you get melee, range and stealth! And if you plan on changing class to Shadow Stalker, this ability complements them very well!

2. Thievery(Active/Passive, level 1, combat feat)

Effect: Steal items from enemies, and also increase stealth. It may just be
a Rogue's instinct for treasure hunting, but these stolen items tends
to be unusually valuable... And was the monster really carrying that
much gold???
Power of stealing: 20 + (10% of Stealth)
Bonus to Stealth: +5%
Extra points: +(20 + (10% of Stealth)) to Steal power.
+5% to Stealth.
The quality of items just keeps getting better!

When you use this ability on ane enemy, you have a chance to steal an item
it carries based on this ability's level and your stealth versus the monster's
level and dexterity. If you succeed, you will steal the item, and will be more
powerful than it would have been if you just killed the monster. So while
attempting to steal may be risky, it will be worth it if you succeed. Note that
this ability has no effects on monsters that carries no items. Also, if you
steal gold, the amount of gold stolen will increase with this ability's level.

What's a Rogue without a thieving ability? This is the new and improved Thievery! Now usable as a combat feat, and if you actually steal an item, it will be empowered, so it's similar in concept to the Divine Items ability of the Diviner. As a bonus, you also receive a passive boost to Stealth, so it will be useful at all time.

3. Rogue Weapons Mastery(Passive, level 1)

Effect: Increases damages of 'Rogue' weapons, that is, concealable light blades
and ranged weapons(daggers, short swords, pistols, etc...).
In other words, increase damages with any Daggers or Swords with a
weight of 10 or lower, as well as one-handed ranged weapons.
Bonus damages: +10%
Extra points: +10% to damages with 'Rogue' weapons.

Rogues have always favored effective and concealable weapons, such as daggers,
short blades and pistols. This improves the damages dealt with these weapons.
Because it improves both melee and ranged weapons, this can be a useful ability
if you seek versatility.

Daggers, short blades, concealable pistols, these are all weapons associated with assassins and criminals! And this ability will allow you to use them with more power than ever! Another ability that provides versatility!

4. Swashbuckler(Passive, level 1)

Effect: Improves dexterity, parrying and allow you to counter attack whenever
you successfully parry. To benefit from the parry bonus and the counter
attack ability, your weapon must be a bladed weapon(sword or dagger)
with a weight of 10 or less.
Bonus to Dexterity: +10%
Bonus to Parry rolls: +10%
Bonus to counter attack damages: +10%
Extra points: +10% to Dexterity.
+10% to Parry rolls.
+10% to counter attack damages.

This passive ability makes you a swashbuckler, a fencer who fights with
dexterity and style. This allows you to gain extra dexterity, and if you
wield the proper weapon, also improves parrying and allows you to counter
attack. Note that you must wield a weapon that enables parrying(it must
have a base AC bonus), and it must be a bladed weapon with a weight of
10 or less.

And here's for the swashbuckler rogues! This ability not only gives a bonus to dexterity all the time, but you get parrying and counterattack as well, though the weapons to which it applies are very specific. Obviously made with Rapiers in mind. The bonus to dex will allow you to use a pistol in your off hand. So with this ability, you can finally be a Pirate in Portralis.


Well, that's it for now. More will be posted, and I'm always open to suggestions!

[challtdow]

Will the Rogue Weapon Mastery also work with crossbows?

Chall T. Dow

[Variaz]

It's "one-handed ranged weapons", so yes, one-handed crossbows will receive the bonus as well.

I'm currently working on redesigning the chests, which are currently obsolete. Next Rogue ability will most likely be Lockpicking, and will be needed to be able to open all the chests in the game.

[Variaz]

And there we go, the Rogue is now completed. Here's the remaining abilities:

5. Lockpicking(Passive, level 1)

Effect: Greatly improves your chances of opening locked chests. Also allows
you to attempt unlocking Magic chests.
Bonus to Lockpicking rolls: +50%
Extra points: +50% to Lockpicking rolls.
More bonus based on the ability's level:
5+ points: Allows you to attempt unlocking Cursed chests.
10+ points: Allows you to attempt unlocking Ancient chests.
Also, guarantees 100% success rate on Iron chests.
20+ points: Guarantees 100% success rate on Large Steel chests.
30+ points: Allows you to attempt unlocking Strange chests.
40+ points: Guarantees 100% success rate on Magic chests.
50+ points: Guarantees 100% success rate on Cursed chests.
75+ points: Guarantees 100% success rate on Ancient chests.
100 points: Guarantees 100% success rate on Strange chests.

This passive ability is a required ability to open the higher level locked
chests that you will find in the dungeons. Locked chests typically contains
higher level items than you would normally find on the dungeon level, but
the amount of dexterity and intelligence required to even attempt lockpicking,
let alone succeed, is very high. This ability will GREATLY raise the chance.
Magic chests requires at least one point in this ability in order to become
unlockable, and higher quality chests requires more. Note that with enough
points, you get 100% chance to open certain chests. However, you must still
have enough dex/int to attempt to unlock it in the first place.

The Rogue's Lockpicking ability that goes with the new chests system. If you're serious about picking chest locks, you WILL take this ability. It's actually REQUIRED for some higher level chests, such as magic chests. After all, Lockpicking is a Rogue's signature ability. No one else's gonna do as good as they do!

6. Deadly Stalker(Passive, level 1)

Effect: When striking an enemy with a melee attack while using a temporary
insibility ability(such as Stealth's Hide feat), a stealth roll for
detection is made. If the monster fails, it will take extra damages.
If you do get the bonus, also has a chance to paralyze.
Extra melee damages: +33%
Paralysis power: 20
Paralysis duration: 2 turns.
Extra points: +33% extra melee damages.
+20 to paralysis power.
+1 to paralysis duration for every 10 points.

This passive ability gives you a chance to get additional damages with
any melee attacks while invisible through a special ability. The success
rate is based on your stealth and the invisibility's power, versus the monster's
level and mind stat. Note that while no monsters are immune to this effect,
elites and bosses have better detection, and uniques have even more. Note
that this ability applies to any melee attacks, even special melee abilities.

If you succeed in getting the damages, you also get a chance to paralyze your
victim. The test is between this ability's level versus the monster's level
and strength. Note that monsters immune to paralysis will not be affected
by this effect(but still receive the damages bonus).

Your "Sneak Attack" type ability. Gives you a chance to greatly improve damages, and stun the monster in the process. The stun is brief, but if you attack again, it can be reapplied over and over. This ability is best used with multiple blows, so Daggers wielders will be pleased!

7. Art of Poisoning(Active/Passive, level 6)

Effect: Change a weapon, ammo or gloves damages type to Poison. Improves the
damages of Poison attacks, and allow them to ignore resistances.
Bonus to Poison damages: +5%
Resistances ignored: 3%
Extra points: +5% to Poison damages.
+3% resistances ignored.

This ability can be used to change a weapon's damages type to Poison.
As a passive bonus, it will improve the damages of all Poison attacks(melee,
ranged and magic), as well as allowing them to ignore some of the resistances
a monster may have. Many monsters are naturally immune to Poison, and this
ability can help you deal with them more easily. If the monster does not
have any resistances to poison, the resistance will be treated as a weakness,
and you will deal more damages. For example, with 10 points in this ability,
a monster with no resistances to Poison will take 30% more damages.

A free elemental weapon! And damages increase to Poison, along with passively piercing resistances to it, which is a common problem with Poison. And if the monster happens to not resist Poison, well, more damages for you! If you play a Kobold rogue, this will be a good ability to consider learning!

8. Finishing Blow(Active, level 6, combat feat)

Effect: A melee attack that deals huge damages to enemies afflicted by a status
ailment(such as paralysis, fear, confusion, etc...).
Bonus damages to afflicted targets: +100%
Bonus damages to non-afflicted targets: +10%
Extra points: +100% bonus damages to afflicted targets.
+10% bonus damages to non-afflicted targets.

This ability is a melee attack that will deal severe damages to an enemy
afflicted by some form of status ailment. This includes paralysis, fear,
confusion and sleep. This ability is most useful if you also took Deadly Stalker,
or another ability that can cause status ailments(such as the Fighter's
Critical Hits). However, even if the enemy doesn't have any status ailments,
this ability is still more powerful than a normal attack, so you can use
it as a general combat feat ability to improve your damages in all situations.

If you succeed in paralyzing with Deadly Stalker, you can chain a combo with this ability, and deal massive damages. But even if you didn't, it's still a combat feat attack that is stronger than your normal blow.

9. Stealthy and Cunning(Passive, level 6)

Effect: Adds points to your intelligence based on your Stealth.
Bonus to Intelligence: +5% of your Stealth.
Extra points: +5% of your Stealth to Intelligence.

This passive ability will improve your intelligence based on your Stealth.
Intelligence gives you mana, and magic can be a helpful complementary ability
to a Rogue, especially alteration spells to paralyze your opponents(and finish
them with Finishing Blow), or Poison elemental spells if you also took
Art of Poisoning. Other spells can also be helpful and this ability will make
access to them much easier. Finally, Intelligence is used with picking locks,
so this ability can also be used as a complementary ability to Lockpicking.

Whether you want to add a bit of magic to your Rogue, or just improve Lockpicking(or both), this can be useful. If you take this, you can have a very versatile character than can do all three main combat styles: melee, ranged and magic!

10. Black Market's Bounty Hunter(Passive, level 10)

Effect: Gain gold after every kills. Increase the quality of items sold
at the Black Market.
Black Market item level/magic level increase: +2
Extra points: +20% gold gained from kills.
+2 to Black Market's maximum item level and magic level.

After every kills, you will gain an amount of gold equal to the experience
value of the monster. That amount is then increased by this ability's level.
The ability will also increase the limit of items available in the black market.
Normally, any items of depth level 40 or higher will never appear in the
black market. However, this will allow them to appear, and with the gold
you've made from kills, you'll be able to buy them more easily. Magic items
in the black market will also be improved.

A single point in this ability is enough to enable the gold-gaining killing blows, and will allow many Mithril items to appear in the Black Market. 10 points will give you three times the experience gains as gold from monsters, and will enable many Adamantium items to appear. It's nice to be wearing adamantium at character level 20 or lower, isn't it?


Well, that's the new Rogue class. Passive bonus are still the same, +25% to Dexterity, Agility and Stealth. As you can see, this once useless class has now been turned into a powerful, and very versatile class. While mainly melee, a properly built rogue can also do ranged and magic pretty well, all while remaining undetected due to high Stealth! Very versatile class. Thievery, Lockpicking and Bounty Hunter will all help you getting proper items to complement your Rogue. I'd say if you play the Rogue properly, this may be a class that can beat the main game without ever multiclassing, if so you wish. But of course, the Shadow Stalker will receive some boosts too, so multiclassing will be an interesting option.

[T10]

By my opinion it's a bit too jack-of-all. You made Portralis to be a multiclass based game. Maybe you should focus the rogue's abilities to a sneak-backstab-fast talk-cheat line and let fighting abilities to fight-based classes, and magic abilities to spellcasting classes.
I miss the "hide" from the list anyway.

[Variaz]

Dec 7, 2009 5:43:40 GMT -5 T10 said:

By my opinion it's a bit too jack-of-all. You made Portralis to be a multiclass based game. Maybe you should focus the rogue's abilities to a sneak-backstab-fast talk-cheat line and let fighting abilities to fight-based classes, and magic abilities to spellcasting classes.
I miss the "hide" from the list anyway.

"Hide" comes with the Stealth skill, which the class does focus a lot on. And then you have the Shadow Stalker's Shadow Cloak ability which was better than Hide in Shadows in most cases. This is why I didn't put it.

Sneak and backstab is still quite a theme of the class. Stealthy Fighter focus on using stealth, Deadly Stalker focus on getting high damages and stun when invisible, and Finishing Blow is meant to finish off the stunned enemies. After that, Thievery, Lockpicking and Bounty Hunter focus on treasures and gold, something all rogues like. Poisoning is also a common ability of rogues.

I guess that leaves Rogue Weapons Mastery and Stealthy and Cunning, which do add versatility. Stealthy Fighter could perhaps drop the Shooting part...

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the Shooting support could probably be entirely removed, since it's just some passive boosts and no other Rogue abilities really supports them. The Rogue's "upgrade", Shadow Stalker, isn't centered around ranged attacks either. And Stealthy and Cunning could be replaced by a "hide" type ability. Perhaps something that would provide a good invisibility level to complement Deadly Stalker.

I may have given the class a bit too much versatility. I wanted it to be useful again, since it's 100% useless in the current 0.3 version, though perhaps I gave them a little too much.

[Gando]

I said to myself I would refrain from commenting on the changes until I had a chance to try them but it feels like the one comment by T-10 completely derailed where you were going with this class. I say keep the changes you have made so far and let us test the class first. If it turns out that Rogue outshines Warrior or Fighter (the 2 main melee classes) then it needs to be toned down. On the other hand if it turns out that Rogue still wants Fighter or Warrior class levels and abilities then no need to go changing anything. I was thinking the ranged boosts might encourage a cross class between marksman/rogue or gunner/rogue. Now it seems unlikely

[Variaz]

Dec 7, 2009 11:01:35 GMT -5 Gando said:

I said to myself I would refrain from commenting on the changes until I had a chance to try them but it feels like the one comment by T-10 completely derailed where you were going with this class. I say keep the changes you have made so far and let us test the class first. If it turns out that Rogue outshines Warrior or Fighter (the 2 main melee classes) then it needs to be toned down. On the other hand if it turns out that Rogue still wants Fighter or Warrior class levels and abilities then no need to go changing anything. I was thinking the ranged boosts might encourage a cross class between marksman/rogue or gunner/rogue. Now it seems unlikely

Perhaps the wisest approach(I haven't reverted the changes yet anyway). Let's try the class first and see.

While I did suggest that you could perhaps single-class the game with it, I didn't say it was the best thing to do. Just a possibility(that has yet to be tested).

That's one problem with the Rogue. Depending on who you ask, everyone has it's own vision. For some, it's a pure hide and backstab type class. But others will see a more versatile class.

Take the D&D 3E Rogue. While hide and backstab is there, they can use ranged weapons(and even sneak attack with them), have a HUGE variety of skills, including "Use Magic Devices" that allows them to use some magic. They are VERY versatile.

If you take the WoW Rogue, however, in this game, it's almost 100% hide and backstab melee. No real viable ranged options, no magic, it's pure melee damages and the devs specifically said that it was their vision of the class.

Then take the "thieves" from Final Fantasy Tactics. They are almost exclusively 100% stealing. Their melee is so-so, but they have high movement and can steal ANYTHING(even the heart of the victim!). So for them, the "Rogue" was an hardcode thief.

My goal was to create a class that would somewhat encompass all visions of the class. In my opinion, the "versatility" approach makes sense, since one day, a rogue could be called to assassinate the king's elite guard captain. The next day, it's about infiltrating a wizard's tower to steal the content of a magic box. So the Rogue has to have a wide variety of skills available to handle many kinds of situations. This includes being able to use ranged weapons to take down big tough elite guard from a safe distance if possible, and being smart enough to understand how the wizard's magic works to properly unlock the box.

Gando is right, it's too soon to talk about balance for a class that doesn't exists yet.

[adelie]

I'll generally agree with Gando towards waiting to playtest most of the abilities, but I think that the design of the lockpicking ability may be too limited to make it a really interesting choice, especially for an ability that suggests that one build their character around it (by promising the potential of a great and unique reward at 30+ points). What do you do with it when you're not running into a chest, or after you've spent 30 levels worth of development to open the one highly rare special chest that you run into (or if the RNG hates you, and you don't find one of those chests)? Would you have been better off taking those 30 levels of thievery (there are plenty of monsters...)? One possibility, that might still remain within the thematic goal would be to merge the ability with the stealthy and cunning (lockpicking/ward breaking is a good mental workout) or maybe a chance to bypass protection/reflection (again, with the ward breaking). This would give some extra interest to an investment that would otherwise be spending most of it's time as dead weight. Another thematic alternative would be to make it a catchall mechanisms skill, and bring back some sort of implementation of traps.

[Variaz]

Lockpicking might not seem all that great on paper, but it does allow to find better items. The 30+ points is required for SPECIAL chests, but regular magic chests only need 1 point. These can drop levelables too! More importantly, magic chests always have an item rank higher than their dungeon levels, and the deeper you go, the best it is.

Some chests at depth 100, for example, could contain rank 150+ items. If your dexterity is high enough(and by that time, it will be pretty high), 5-10 points should be enough for a chance to open them. Not bad for an item that would otherwise not be available, or much later.

This same fact could also be used to make "Chests-exclusive" artifacts later on, which would greatly make up for the points spent.

The chests have JUST been revamped as well, and I didn't even do a test run yet, so we'll have to see.

[Variaz]

Well, so far so good! The Rogue is fun to play, quite good in his own right, yet so far, not overpowered at all.

Current character is a Kobold Rogue, level 20, with:

Stealth Mastery - 10
Lockpicking - 5
Art of Poisoning - 5

Stealth Mastery is pretty good, it allows Stealth to act like Fighting. While it doesn't pack as much punch as Fighter's Sheer Power would, Stealth really works well to avoid fights that would be too hard.

Lockpicking is nice when you find good chests. However, it turned out to be slightly underpowered. Or rather, chests still required too much dexterity + int to open. So to fix that, I had to lower the required dex/int to attempt opening chests. Now it's much better, and magic/cursed chest = lots of money! I have also replaced the useless scroll of trap detection by the much better scroll of chests detection, and I did the same thing with the Divination spell. This will make it even easier to find the chests!

And finally, Art of Poisoning, on a Kobold, is simply wonderful. First take the 50% Kobold bonus. Then add the Poison damages bonus. Then add the weakness for negative resistance. All of them multiplicative. Poison has never been as good as it is!

After Art of Poisoning, I plan on getting Deadly Stalker for even more damages! With the high stealth, it's going to be an effective ability!


DRAWBACKS

Fears that the class would be TOO versatile and perhaps too good, however, have not come true.

Stealthy Fighter is nice, but in the end, provides no real damages increase. It merely allows you to do damages at all. A Fighter would have had Sheer Power, which is much better early on.

The Rogue has a high Dexterity. Except no abilities really puts it to good use. Though the Rogue gets bonus to ranged damages, it's not enough to make a pure ranged character. Marksman and Gunner abilities are still a must-have. For melee Rogues, a Warrior's Battle Skill would be a nice complement to the high Dex.

Lack of a great defensive ability, combined with a high stat that doesn't help dealing damages, makes spreading stats a bit more difficult. Strength has to be added to the mix for a melee Rogue, which means less Constitution. Defense and Agility have to be a bit higher, meaning less raw power.


Overall, the class is quite fun to play, and quite good in it's own right. But I don't think it's going to be easy to defeat 40+ Bosses and Nightmares with just this class alone, multiclassing is heavily recommended, as the class lacks a bit of reliable, high power, and is a little frail. On the other hand, it's the best class to avoid having to fight the 40+ bosses and Nightmares! (well, Nightmares have extremely high detection...)

[hairybolox]

Sounds like it's gonna be fun & i'm looking forward to playing one !! Will these updates be released anytime soon ? I hope so
With all this dexterity wouldn't points in Rangers "weapon finesse" help with damages... ? It would save putting points into strength

A couple of questions though :-

How will "stealthy fighter" stack with Shadow Stalkers "stealth attack" ?

Will "stealthy & cunning" use base stealth or use the level after it's been enhanced by "one with shadows" or "shadow cloak" ?

How often will the different types of chests appear and at what levels ?

With you replacing trap detection with chest detection is the reveal spell the only way of detecting traps now ?

Cheers & keep up the good work !!!!! ;D

[Variaz]

Sounds like it's gonna be fun & i'm looking forward to playing one !! Will these updates be released anytime soon ? I hope so

By the end of the year. Deadline is the 1st of January, could be before, but not after.

How will "stealthy fighter" stack with Shadow Stalkers "stealth attack" ?

Stealthy Fighter becomes the base skill for melee attacks. Stealth Attack will add stealth to your total skill. So you're essentially doubling your skill, making it a very effective combo!

Will "stealthy & cunning" use base stealth or use the level after it's been enhanced by "one with shadows" or "shadow cloak" ?

It uses the total stealth, so yes, it should work with shadow cloak and stealth items.

How often will the different types of chests appear and at what levels ?

There is always at least one chest every levels, and up to 10 after I think about dungon level 30. Their quality increases as you go deeper and deeper.

With you replacing trap detection with chest detection is the reveal spell the only way of detecting traps now ?

This won't be an issue, since traps won't spawn anymore in the next release. They were obsolete, and I'm not sure if I will put them back or not.

[T10]

Will the ability 'Thievery' work with the old thievery command 'Z'?

[Variaz]

No, it's now a "U" ability. Z is now free, and it allows Thievery to be used as a combat feat, meaning you can do more than one attempt on every turns if you have the combat feat skill.