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Post by jellyman on Nov 17, 2008 23:48:51 GMT -5
A couple thoughts on reworking the death penalty:
Gold - You can avoid nearly all loss of gold on death by storing your gold in your home each time you recall. This is a tedious exercise that I suggest could be eliminated, similar to how the requirement for food is elminated.
Items - Current loss of items can be a big penalty at lower levels. At higher levels you can eternalize everything and I don't think it matters how often you die. Although I admit I haven't got to high enough level to actually do this...
Alternative: Introduce experience or level loss on death. Considering that traditionally roguelike (or at least angband variants) have the ultimate death penalty, I would personally expect a fairly stiff penalty. Something like loss of two levels, both for character, and for each levalable item. Any non levelable item, or levelable of level 2 or less is permantly lost.
A potential issue is recall depth. With such a strong penalty you probably wouldn't be able to recall to a dungeon level you died in at 2 levels higher. Perhaps part of the penalty is then also being forced to walk back to the start of the dungeon and start again, which I personally would consider not fun. Perhaps an option for a reduction in dungeon recall depth, or maybe when you die recall depth is set to the lowest level of the dungeon.
This would be a fairly dramatic increase in the severity of the death penalty, so perhaps reducing the amount of level loss to something like 1/4 of a level would make the penalty roughly consistent with the current penalty in severity.
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Post by Variaz on Nov 18, 2008 0:01:21 GMT -5
I don't know about this... Losing levels is in many ways more crippling than losing non-eternal items. And reducing item levels?? It already takes a while to level them, I don't think this would be very fun... With that kind of system, I don't think I would ever dare using a red ever again.
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Post by Gando on Nov 18, 2008 0:03:13 GMT -5
I agree that late game Gold loss isn't as big an issue because in general items become easier to get/eternalize and leveling items are a must so that's the smart play anyway (eternalized levelables). However midgame those penalties can be quite frustrating and take the fun out of playing a character you have grown used to. This is I think a matter of opinion and imho hardcore powergamers should stick to angband and varients there of rather than playing offshoots like port where the mechanics take 2nd place to the emphasis on playability and fun.
This seems extremely unfun as ideas go. Particularly since at higher levels you may die quite often to Mature Dragons, Nightmares and the like.
Recall depth is somewhat besides the point in Port since WoR only works on quest dungeons. Random Dungeons only allow recalling out of them not into them.
All in all I agree that the death penalties could be smoothed a bit or made more interesting but I do not think these suggestions work for that purpose. As I said before if you need the challenge of uber frustrating mechanics play another Roguelike. (Incursion comes to mind as I am playing it currently and cursing it's programmer silently through gritted teeth while I die to poor mechanics, harsh penalities, fumble fingeredness and general stupidity plus random crashes that set back my progress by quite a bit on occasion.)
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Post by Variaz on Nov 18, 2008 0:13:10 GMT -5
I will confess using Abort often when I die, and burst in anger when I fail to abort and my character dies. Geez, and I'm the one who introduced that system too... In the mid-game, death almost doesn't matter. Perhaps Death Count increase is enough of a penality, since it sticks there tarnishing your character's sheet. Maybe we should just leave it at that, and perhaps add an option to enable harsher losses and perhaps perma-death.
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Post by Gando on Nov 18, 2008 3:44:56 GMT -5
I say leave death as it is but add in options (in the = menu) so that people can change the settings to be: a) No penalty (have it marked in the dump as "Woose") b) Normal (marked in dump as "Standard") c) Expert - dying loses you experience in addition to gold and items. (Marked in Dump as "Expert") d) Ironman - death is permanent. (Marked in Dump as "Iron Man") This gives people the widest options and gives those who like to brag something to brag about if they are so inclined and capable. Personally I'd probably do woosy runs until I knew how to play an archtype and then start on harder runs until I felt comfortable doing Ironman (probably never). ==edit== The thought occured to me that by putting this in the = menu instead of only at startup (it needs to be in the start up proceedure for new characters) you enable people to switch difficulties as desired...however the dump will only reflect the lowest setting even if you finish the game in ironman. ==edit 2== Perhaps the higher end settings give you some nice starting incentive like a purple weapon or armor or extra gold or spellbooks all depending on your class/race choices. This will make doing ironman more intriguing for those of us who are basically hopeless.
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Post by jellyman on Nov 18, 2008 16:03:40 GMT -5
A mild death penalty could be as little as say a reduction of 5 in kill count for every levelable, and loss of 5% of a level = i.e. 5% of the experienced required from start of current level to start of next level.
Other death penalty option might be loss of stats until you pay a priest some gold to restore. And the gold amount goes up as you level.
Also any thoughts on not losing gold on death to avoid endless storage and retrieval of gold from home? That was probably the part of the suggestion I was keenest on.
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Post by Gando on Nov 19, 2008 1:17:29 GMT -5
You really love that idea I see...but IMHO it is still a bad one. I dont really understand why you want it but I think it is perhaps because you are used to such penalties in other games. Portralis is not those games. And my thinking here is the more you emphasize the negative aspects of a game the less fun it becomes. There are alot of games where I shake my heads at the designers and wonder what their aim was...Then I remember some people enjoy seeing others struggle and some like the struggle themselves. Not with problem solving or tactical/strategic decision making but with real adversity. Or as real as can be made. Similar in someways to the kids game of throwing knives at each other's feet to see how close you can get without cutting your friend. Not fun once the bleeding starts at least for the one cut but perhaps the goal of such games isn't fun but some right of passage into caveman status. Well I don't know as I said but I prefer games where the adversity is posed by the challenge of the game itself not the mechanics. Hard foes? sure. Potential death with some loss sure...harsh penalties designed to make you throw you hands in the air and move on to another game? not so much.
Hence I recomended the options I did for those who really want to play the game the hardest way possible. We could tack your penalties on to the expert level though I for one would just forgo the "pleasure."
Here is a revamping of my options idea:
a) No penalty (have it marked in the dump as "Woose") b) Normal (marked in dump as "Standard") c) Expert - dying loses you experience in addition to gold and items. (Marked in Dump as "Expert") d) Masochist - dying loses you all experience, all items (eternal has no meaning) and you lose whatever is in your house. plus you don't get recalled to town, having to walk back unaided by Word of recall...and unable to pick anything up or fight until you speak to a priest who will want 20% of all future earnings. e) Ironman - death is permanent. (Marked in Dump as "Iron Man")
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Post by Variaz on Nov 19, 2008 1:39:20 GMT -5
For the Masochist level, I'd say we dump the "plus you don't get recalled to town, having to walk back unaided by Word of recall...and unable to pick anything up or fight until you speak to a priest who will want 20% of all future earnings.". This would make it basically unplayable, as being revived without any light and/or telepathy makes it nearly impossible to survive. You'd get hundreds of deaths before coming out, quite litterally. The rest, however, is an excellent idea.
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Post by jellyman on Nov 19, 2008 2:27:26 GMT -5
You really love that idea I see... Well I really like the idea of not having to store my money in my home every time I make a trip to the dungeon. I don't care whether that is achieved through my suggestion, or a totally different suggestion.
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Post by espeorb on Nov 19, 2008 7:19:27 GMT -5
In my opinion, Gando's idea is great. Everyone would have something to brag about, and despite dying a lot in RLs, I would actually like to play on Ironman setting. Though Masochist is not that great of an idea; it's almost worse than permadeath!
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Post by Gando on Nov 19, 2008 8:12:18 GMT -5
For the Masochist level, I'd say we dump the "plus you don't get recalled to town, having to walk back unaided by Word of recall...and unable to pick anything up or fight until you speak to a priest who will want 20% of all future earnings.". This would make it basically unplayable, as being revived without any light and/or telepathy makes it nearly impossible to survive. You'd get hundreds of deaths before coming out, quite litterally. The rest, however, is an excellent idea. 2 things. 1) I guess I worded it poorly...youd not be able to fight as in nothing would be able to attack you either...but it would be a long walk in the dark...just what a masochist loves. 2) the whole point of the masochist entry was a bit of sarcasm because I felt jellyman's aproach to foil the gold loss was to make the game unplayable. But as is often said sarcasm oft falls flat on the internet. The nuance is totally missed due to lack of tone. Anyway please don't include the masochist option...someone is bound to blame me after playing it and wrecking their keyboard in a hissy fit.
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Post by espeorb on Nov 19, 2008 8:39:47 GMT -5
Indeed, though to have tone within our words- err, our typings, I should say we use emoticons. Or, rather, some people prefer to TYPE LIKE THIS RAAA! Quite a tone, eh? Anyway I had no idea you were being sarcastic, though I could not even imagine playing a Masochist character. Though your idea had more meaning than you know - I would indeed like to have a permadeath character or two (or twenty, judging by how I play) just to add more of an RL feel to Port. However, Port is barely an RL anymore.
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Post by Gando on Nov 19, 2008 18:13:27 GMT -5
Indeed, though to have tone within our words- err, our typings, I should say we use emoticons. Or, rather, some people prefer to TYPE LIKE THIS RAAA! Quite a tone, eh? Anyway I had no idea you were being sarcastic, though I could not even imagine playing a Masochist character. Though your idea had more meaning than you know - I would indeed like to have a permadeath character or two (or twenty, judging by how I play) just to add more of an RL feel to Port. However, Port is barely an RL anymore. Yeah the rest of the options were not in jest. Ironman is an intriguing idea if you can train yourself up to it. And I disagree about port not being much of an RL. If you play enough RLs you will realize they come in all shapes and sizes and Port still has alot of the core things about being an RL without alot of the negatives. Variaz has done an amazing job of wiping out bugs and fixing UI difficulties and adding original content. If Port doesn't hit you in the solar plexus for even thinking of playing like some of the early roguelikes well that to me is all to the better though some people may miss the pain. It does have downsides still and incoveniences but alot of those are self inflicted.
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Post by espeorb on Nov 19, 2008 18:27:50 GMT -5
Indeed, though to have tone within our words- err, our typings, I should say we use emoticons. Or, rather, some people prefer to TYPE LIKE THIS RAAA! Quite a tone, eh? Anyway I had no idea you were being sarcastic, though I could not even imagine playing a Masochist character. Though your idea had more meaning than you know - I would indeed like to have a permadeath character or two (or twenty, judging by how I play) just to add more of an RL feel to Port. However, Port is barely an RL anymore. Yeah the rest of the options were not in jest. Ironman is an intriguing idea if you can train yourself up to it. And I disagree about port not being much of an RL. If you play enough RLs you will realize they come in all shapes and sizes and Port still has alot of the core things about being an RL without alot of the negatives. Variaz has done an amazing job of wiping out bugs and fixing UI difficulties and adding original content. If Port doesn't hit you in the solar plexus for even thinking of playing like some of the early roguelikes well that to me is all to the better though some people may miss the pain. It does have downsides still and incoveniences but alot of those are self inflicted. Forgive me, my definition of "roguelike" has been ruined. All I've played other than Rogue, Diablo and the like (awesome, btw) and a couple roguelike oddballs are all variants of Angband. I compare every roguelike or game similar, even some RPGs I play, to Angband. This is the mindset that many people have. I apologize. On the other hand, I still do not think Portralis is a true, 100% pure roguelike. Though it is built off of a now-obscure variant of Angband, it has much evolved, and in my eyes, become its own game. This game is Portralis, an RPG-Roguelike fusion/marraige with elements that are so incredibly awesome that it makes it hard to play any other variant of Angband, or a good few other RPGs. But I can now that I have realized that Portralis is its own kind of game. Thank you.
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Post by Gando on Nov 20, 2008 1:16:26 GMT -5
Most angband varients are hard enough without making up excuses not to play them. I mean if a game is punishing you for playing it in order to teach you its mechanics it is not really a game but an exercise in futility. And if you manage to get past the gauntlet(another ancient roguelike) you will find that you no longer think of gaming in the same light. Some people play to enjoy the process, some people play because they see others doing it and assume it must be important, some play because they feel obligated by life to do so when they really just want to work. The first group find games that are fun and perhaps challenging. The second group try different games never finding any one that satisfies them or they realize they don't really want to play at all eventually and stop, and the last group play angband and co. I have noticed that the browser game community is alot like that last group...They play because they have time to kill and want bragging rights but they do not enjoy the process or if they do that joy is short term. Alot of these people develop macroers and other software programs to shortcut the game for them. I used to think it was just because they were cheaters but apparently it is because they really just don't feel like playing them. Oh and the browser games that end up all click and no fun are the ones these last gravitate to the most. (go figure.) I can tell Espeorb you are definitely in the first group of players. Your sig says it all (I considered making my own version of that but figured I didnt want to bite off if your unique sig idea.) Overall I love portralis because it is relatively bug free, is gaining momentum in userability (it has a few things that could be addressed but its coming along nicely) and it is still in the process of being made. Which means you and I (and all the other forum readers) can help Variaz shape it. That's pretty cool in and of itself. Of the Angband varients Portralis is the most unique and then Tome which has also grown into its own archtype. Unfortunately Tome and its subvarients see little monthly development and it is basically finished. This means no community involvement really. Though the possibility of making a module for it is intriguing. The problem is aside from Tome itself and furyband few of the mods made for it are complete enough to play. Lots of great ideas there but not alot of follow through. in conclusion...Portralis is still a roguelike, (just as diablo I + II are and gauntlet I-?? was) and like the other games mentioned it has made its own mark on what it means to be roguelike. I think the addition of death options will solidify for that because that is something most roguelikes have in some form or another.
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