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Post by vastin on Jul 16, 2008 16:55:57 GMT -5
Does anyone have any tips for building a summoner?
I was messing with the idea a bit the other day trying to build a character around the idea of conjuration, starting with the 'Summon Type' spell - but it was a total bust.
The only version of that spell that I've ever been able to create that has value is the exploity 0 power, summon p version that lets you summon a bazillion jindar guards. While this is good for some giggles and a decent meat sheild, its not much use otherwise as they have no offense to speak of, and its obviously a bug.
Every other time I've tried to make a summon spell I've gotten the following results:
1) Nothing shows up - most common result. Probably because I'm not using enough power to summon the weakest creature of 'type', but I've dumped a fair bit of power into some of these and nothing shows up the vast majority of the time.
2) They show up and time out instantly - I put in duration 10, and it seems like I'm lucky if they last a single turn? Snuh? I could see it being random (dur/2, dur), but (1, dur) for such an expensive spell? Truth is it feels a lot more like they are using (1, dur/2)...
3) They show up and are tragically low level - If I just cast a power 10 summon (which is probably cost 80 after giving it a minimal duration), I really need something beefier than a level 4 Kobold to show up! Seriously, I'm probably throwing a 35k firebolt minimum at those spell power levels! That lvl 4 Kobold better be putting out some serious hurt to compare...
I don't know, I've seen some posts that suggest that summons can be used fairly effectively, but I'm clearly missing something, because mine totally suck.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 16, 2008 18:01:25 GMT -5
Depending on what you try to summon, you need enough power. If you're trying to summon "d", for example, anything below power 9 will not do anything.
The duration is the number of moves they can take before they disappear. However, if the monsters are faster than you, it may seem like the duration is short, because the monster might be able to make two moves for every one of yours. The opposite is also true. If you're much faster than your monsters, they'll appear to last longer.
Summon Kind and Summon Specific will summon monsters of the same average level that normal monsters of that depth usually are. For example, casting Summon Kind on dungeon level 1 will summon weaker monsters than the same spell cast on level 20.
For summoners, you want to have a high Charisma and Leadership. Charisma acts like a Strength/Intelligence stat for your monsters(as well as providing a better hit rate), while Leadership acts like a Fighting/Shooting/Spellcraft. Both are cumulative with the monster's own stats. With enough Charisma and Leadership, it will make a huge difference, even with the weaker monsters.
Another thing to remember when creating summoning spells is that you don't need to increase the number of summons all that much, as the Conjuration skill provides extra summons. You shouldn't need more than 100 Conjuration either, as 100 will give you the 50% discount, and about 10-11 monsters for a number 1 summon spell. That's enough as far as Conjuration bonus goes for a summoner. Defense and Agility can be lower than usual, since you won't be in the front row, and will have monsters covering you. Magic Defense you should still raise though, as radius spells can still be nasty. Other than that, every other points should go into Leadership.
Stat-wise, Charisma is your main stat. Intelligence/Wisdom should be your secondary stat, depending if you use Intelligence or Wisdom for casting(Intelligence is probably better though, as summons are expensive. Wisdom users should probably go for a Soul-Guardian/Simulacrum summoner instead). You could also place a few points in Constitution if you want more hp.
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Post by vastin on Jul 16, 2008 20:01:53 GMT -5
Summon Kind and Summon Specific will summon monsters of the same average level that normal monsters of that depth usually are. For example, casting Summon Kind on dungeon level 1 will summon weaker monsters than the same spell cast on level 20. Aha - I think that this is what I didn't understand at all. I was doing almost all of my testing of this spell in town where I could make many different versions of the spell - but it sounds like I'd be lucky to get anything at all on the surface and if I did it would be pathetically weak no matter how much power I used. I also missed the part in the conjuration write-up that mentioned that it increases the number of summons - that should help a lot. Thanks.  |
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T10
Veteran
Posts: 99
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Post by T10 on Jul 16, 2008 23:30:59 GMT -5
I play with a celestial named Sheeniel.
The summoning tried by her.
My favorit the summon kind, wolf.
For a cost 60, with power 4, number 1 and time 10, she always summons a pack ov wolves!
I don't know, why, but she can call a whole pack.
May the wolf spirit be vith her:)
But if you try to build a summoner, you must be a patient man.
A pack of wolves huntis down a single opponent in 5-10 turns, and every move vill be written for you...
Another problem the spell turning. Bouncing spells will make angry your friends.
You must be very watchful with your area affecting spells!
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Post by Gando on Jul 17, 2008 3:41:16 GMT -5
My experiences with summoning have been almost entirely negative so I do not have a lot to suggest...I love the idea behind the summoner but it seems like it is a doomed class. All the things you pointed out that happened while you were testing in town also bore out in deep dungeons. And in addition there is something bizarre with the behavior of your summons. They may turn on you withOUT any provocation. There is no apparent reason for this and has nothing to do with the area of effect difficulties.
It is true that it has been awhile since I messed around with the summoner but to be honest its not an easy class to start with....probably best to get a few levels in defensive classes first (paladin, warrior, defender etc). Paladin works out pretty well because it has the need for charisma and gives a nice charisma boost and you could concievably go wisdom caster with it and do summoning that way.
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Post by skyghene on Aug 2, 2008 9:29:00 GMT -5
Call animals (the ranger ability) works great for lower levels. Sometimes it doesnt summon anything, but you will often summon stuff such as young salamanders or bears, which can do a lot of damage while you get to the higher end spells.
Btw, do summons give class kills when killing monsters? Last time i tried it only gave me exp.
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Post by Gando on Aug 2, 2008 12:06:21 GMT -5
Btw, do summons give class kills when killing monsters? Last time i tried it only gave me exp. As far as I know the answer is no. Maybe they should though...V? |
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Post by Variaz on Aug 2, 2008 12:33:01 GMT -5
I believe they should, yes...
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Post by divinefistoka on Dec 15, 2008 11:53:25 GMT -5
Would a new type of summoning be out of the question? (One which doesn't use duration, and summons a companion that stays till death?) Cost might have to be upped significantly... And are summoning summons still viable in portralis? (Summon a monster that can summon other things, which can then summon more things, till the level is flooded with a horde (100+) dragons or demons or whatever...) That might solve some of the cost issues with the spells. You can summon one creature (no need for more) which can summon more of them for you, not costing you a single point, to boot. Of course depth and power would make the initial summon a little costly but with a bit of luck it would net you a LOT more then you would otherwise get.
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Post by Variaz on Dec 15, 2008 16:54:48 GMT -5
Summoning summoners would work, but the problem with summoning at the moment is that it's ackward to use, as friendly monsters aren't exactly smart, and can run out of duration before they get the chance to deal their damages.
These two problems have been known to cause a pack of Restless Deads to lose to a magic immune Elf Bandit! ;D (back in the day where RDs were summonable)
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Post by kipar on Aug 23, 2009 12:08:27 GMT -5
Summoning isn't so bad now. At least at low levels.
Maybe it is a bug, but summoning kind 'h' with power 1 number 1 duration 95 (or less) costs only 40 mana and brings pack of dwarven defenders with level.... 25! So they wipe out everything in dungeon level 10 and lasts long enough. I use wisdom casting, so i can use a very large horde of them.
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Post by Gando on Aug 23, 2009 16:26:22 GMT -5
Kipar you really take the cake. This is a dead thread and you necroed it...again. Please report bugs in the Bug Reports forum for better results.  |
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Post by kipar on Aug 23, 2009 17:00:16 GMT -5
Why raising dead threads is bad? I just dont' want to create new thread when there is a thread with the same name. |
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Post by Variaz on Aug 24, 2009 11:08:45 GMT -5
My last post in this was about Restless Deads, so the thread regenerated like the monster does.  |
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