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Post by Variaz on Aug 10, 2008 12:05:11 GMT -5
I think you underestimate some of the feats. For Polearms, double base damages is a great bonus, so 90 points in Polearms is probably worth it. Let's assume a character with 100 strength, 500 Crafting. That gets 100 points per items, and since we're using a blue steel halberd(20d16), we get 12 slots. So 1200 tp. Assuming 100 Defense, 100 Agility and 100 Magic Defense, that's 900 points in Polearms. Now, if we put 90 Polearms, we get 410 Crafting, or 82 tp per items. That's 984. Assuming, again, 100 Defense, Agility and MDefense, that's 684 points in Polearms. So let's make the maths! CASE 1: Pure Enchanter: Average halberd base damages: 170 170 * 900 = 153000 153000 + 495%(495 to_d) = 910350 910350 *2(strength bonus of 100%) = 1820700 per blows. CASE 2: Near Pure Enchanter with 90 Polearms: Average halberd base damages: 170*2 = 340 340 * 684 = 232560 232560 + 495%(495 to_d) = 1383732 1383732 *2(strength bonus of 100%) = 2767464 per blows. So you end up winning on the damages with 90 Polearms. Plus, you get the Thrust attack and the ability to parry with the polearm, which can compensate if you don't want Defense Transfer. Another case is Blunt. Do NOT underestimate the last Blunt feat, it's extremely powerful(I tried it on my last Defender build, and it was great!). Reducing defense to 0 is very helpful, and the chance of success is pretty high since monsters makes a dex-based saving throw, which is usually their lowest stat, versus your Blunt skill * 10(the FINAL Blunt skill, not base, so enchanted items will raise the success rate a lot). It takes 70 points in Blunt to get it. Your raw damages will be a bit lower, but the fact that almost all your hits will connect due to 0 defense makes this a very good ability. Oh, and it can be used as a Combat Feat. Definitly an option to consider. Other stuff: - 1 natural points in Agility for Jump. - 5 natural points to Axes gives you Chop, which does more damages than a normal axe attack, and always but 25% of the enemy's current defense. - 20 natural points in Dual Wield is almost a must if you want to benefit from dual wielding at it's full potential. - 20 points into Fighting gives you Power Attack, which is needed for some of Fighter's abilities. It's also good against the Imps of Greed. For the other skills, overall, it's probably better to put points in Crafting instead. As you can see, you don't need to put a lots of natural points in non-crafting skills, but in some cases, it can help.
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Post by vastin on Aug 10, 2008 18:15:19 GMT -5
But you see, your example doesn't even double the damage output, but it strips nearly 150 tweak points out of the build and kills its flexibility.
I'd say that's not even remotely worth it for access to a couple of non-essential feats.
The case for getting Chop is one of the more compelling ones, given the strength of that feat - but most other feats simply aren't worth the loss of so many stats/SP.
I generally find that the least of my problems is doing sufficient damage with my primary attack. I usually find that the real issue is having enough points around that my secondary attacks - the ones I break out to deal with immunes or returners - are powerful enough to kill a creature in reasonable time. In that category I find pure enchanters far, far more powerful because they 1) have tons and tons of points and can be well rounded, and 2) can just switch out a few items and modify their build to deal with a difficult creature.
But the more points you put outside of crafting, the less adaptable the build becomes.
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Post by vastin on Aug 10, 2008 18:41:48 GMT -5
Oh, one other big side note: Polearms are two handed, which is another big strike against any skill in that category, as you lose about a 10th of your potential itemization stats simply by wielding any 2H weapon and throwing away the off-hand slot.
That of course goes for any build, not just enchanter/crafters. I think a two hander would have to offer a lot more than twice the base damage to make up for the loss of the slot.
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Post by Gando on Aug 10, 2008 22:48:53 GMT -5
I hate to say this...but I find myself in entire agreement with what Vastin said here about the Enchanter. In terms of cost efficiency Pure Enchanter is the best way to build the class. Though it is probably fun to extend the build to include other skills and classes you will find the game MUCH MUCH harder. It isnt easy even with the Pure Enchanter build. And as the Greed quest illustrates it has a gaping weakness...But unless you are nuts like me you will just do the sane thing and avoid said quest. (Though now it seems obvious how to accomplish it and there are some very good potential rewards involved in doing so.) I expect doing the restless quest will be as hard or harder since I ran into restless dead with my Kensai and had to flee them eventually before they could get in their finishing blows on him. Ick...thats all I can say regarding that. Not sure even the tricks posted actually work on them...they certainly didnt work for me.
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Post by Variaz on Aug 11, 2008 0:35:37 GMT -5
For some reasons, I always end up using a two-handed weapon, because I find the damages difference significant. Even one more item for additional points will not outdamage two-handers. For pure damages, they are very good, especially Polearms. One more item will give you more defensive options, but then that's the whole point of using a two-hander vs one-hander and a shield. I suppose that's because of the build I use them with. My favorite Polearms builds uses a lot of always-hit attacks like Accurate Strike, Element Strike, Wave of Element and such, and that's usually how I build this character. I actually rarely get in "true" close combat, using a combination of combat feats and stuff. I will recreate her soon as my tester for the main quest. I'll post her build once I'll have recreated her. One handed weapons main advantage is that you can get more blows with that extra item, but it takes many blows. Maybe in the very long terms it's better(will need to do maths here), but it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference. What about spears? With the double base damages bonus, they're actually stronger than swords! Albeit not as accurate.
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Post by Gando on Aug 11, 2008 1:06:47 GMT -5
This combination of boss abilities is just evil especially when combined with a high hp monster with both physical and magic attacks:
Immune to Magic Attack, Monster's attacks Scare, Blind and Confuse, Returns 50% physical...
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Post by Gando on Aug 11, 2008 1:15:54 GMT -5
It seems the bottom floor of the Restless dead quest is broken. The one viper undead I met there could not be attacked and some how Jump broke where the cursor to point where to jump got screwed by some weirdness and would not go where intended and so one could not jump. Also I dropped an item on the floor and it disappeared...the combat thing...I have 29 attacks with one dagger and 14 with the other and after I tried my combat feat none of them tried even to attack...no miss messages nothing...just end of my turn. Yet the viper's combat works just fine. Is this another intentional way to trick us? if so its not funny.
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Post by Gando on Aug 11, 2008 1:38:52 GMT -5
Or perhaps its just my luck as a bug magnet...because when I escaped and went back everything was normal...though the 600ton restless dead waiting for me wasnt pleasant...it doesnt need 3 lives...I cant even kill it once...got it to 550k and it healed to max in one turn...most of my hits missed at 4k+ tohit...and the damage was negligable for those that did hit...nice armor...Id like some of that please...
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Post by Gando on Aug 11, 2008 1:40:06 GMT -5
Im fairly certain I cant build anything as an enchanter even at level 60 that will take down this restless dead mob...not going to even bother again.
=Edit= Well I thought about it and decided to at least try the paralyze tactic...I started out by making the paralyze spell...but apparently its not powerful enough to deal with the restless dead as it only worked 2x out of 30 tries. the rest of the time it blocked or resisted. then I tried increasing my alteration skill via items. No luck...Oh and then next time I visited that level I ran into the elite version with 2milliion+ hp...Really REALLY not cool.
I ran like heck to avoid that sucker once I realized it wasnt ever going to be paralyzed EVER. Rage my behind...that thing was total resistance. and it hit for 10k hp or more per attack. Personally Im a little offended by the concept of an unkillable monster. It feels like an insult even though I know it isnt. Sort of a "you will never be good enough" thrown in by the creator just because.
It is surprising that I was able to just jump around the dead and get the quest item to finish that portion of the quest...was expecting at least a reward for completing it though...not the "wait for the next part..." message I did get. :/
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Post by Variaz on Aug 11, 2008 15:50:11 GMT -5
Try increasing both Alteration and Intelligence/Wisdom. A higher Int/Wis stat will make the spell harder to block.
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Post by Gando on Aug 11, 2008 23:27:46 GMT -5
Try increasing both Alteration and Intelligence/Wisdom. A higher Int/Wis stat will make the spell harder to block. Nah that wasnt it...I have a 90 int and at the time was wearing a 33 alteration robe, so it was just that the monster's resists made it nearly immune. The only way to complete the quest is to avoid it and grab the item because it was undefeatable. The most I got it down to from 600k was 200k then it came out of its resist and healed all instantly...and the elite with its 2mil hp was just impossible.
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Post by Gando on Aug 16, 2008 13:00:33 GMT -5
So I decided to try the SV quests again with my Kensai...an overall fairly good build with just a few classes: Monk Kensai and Soul Guardian. The reason for soul guardian should be obvious...Though its bonuses for items are not great yet (where's the next build??) the ability to make a few items magical cheaply is a boon for the magic item-poor kensai (no crafting...no amazing drops aside from a few artifact rewards.) SO I figured Id take on the greed imps and lo and behold after MUCH tinkering to get a setup that let me deal damage to the imps without almost AUTO dying by their multitudes of suicide attackers I start to do that dungeon...I even capture a few imp souls...but apparently Im chicken feed to the boss who tosses a missile storm my way and obliterates the summoned greed imps AND me. Ouch...needless to say this makes me very unhappy...unlike the crafter build that can afford a decent charisma (not sure how much is needed but I had 70+ when I did this quest with my enchanter) when convenient I could not talk my way out of this with this character even though the dialogue looks like there should be a noncharisma way to do this...I have to say of all the quests in the game this is definitely the most sadistic of the bunch...there is no logical solution that works...going naked means dying...going fully clothed means being unable to kill anything. There is no middle ground that works. I really think this quest needs to be tinkered with. Particularly the boss who with 158k hp and a good 12 tile range on you with no where to hide behind just is unbeatable. Though I suppose if I could manage to get another 20 levels it could happen. but level 45 in portralis is a total grind and completely dangerous to boot. The deeper one goes the harder the dungeons get exponentially...by level 45 you are mostly running for your life (my hypotheses based on what Ive seen at 30+) I know you do not want to hear about complaints or bad builds or this or that but I really think this quest is unfair in general.
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Post by Variaz on Aug 16, 2008 13:14:31 GMT -5
Maybe the Greed ability is too strong.
It's actually the total value of your items * 3. But perhaps it should just be the total value, dropping the "* 3". Still a good soaking, but much less broken.
EDIT: I did just that. If you want to change it, go to elements.lua, line 1122, and remove the "greedsoak = greedsoak * 3".
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Post by Gando on Aug 16, 2008 13:38:51 GMT -5
Ill give it a shot...after a very hard battle involving jumping alot I managed to finally wittle her down to beatable...and then almost died to a stray imp...:/ but it looks like reducing the soak made a huge difference.
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Post by challtdow on Aug 16, 2008 16:48:22 GMT -5
I was able to beat the imps quite easily with my kensai. I just dropped all his equiptment at home and bought a bronze long sword. I was able to kill each one in about two rounds and by taking advantage of corners I never had to worry about being attacked by more than one. The level 40 ones were harded, but I had a strong enough Heal to counter their attacks. I've never fought the boss. I always buy a 30+ point Charisma Licialhyd and leave it at the stairs until I kill the imps. Then I pick up and use it before opening the door.
Chall T. Dow
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