Riftor's modified classes.txt file

[Variaz]

Note: This message is actually from Riftor, but he doesn't have anywhere to put his file, so I'm hosting it for now. The file can be downloaded here:
www.geocities.com/pericles_2ca/riftorclasses.zip

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Hi All,
I've modified Adelie's classes.txt file to remove all specific class requirements as per the decision in the Suggestion section of the Forum. Specific changes follow below, but I changed all specific class requirements except the Justice Warriors' skill requirements. This is only a minor modification of Adelie's original modification, so she deserves the majority of the credit. Here are the specific changes:

--Changed High Mage's level 5 Mage requirement to Spellcraft 60
--Changed Elementalist's level 3 Warrior requirement to Spellcraft 20
--Changed High Monk's level 8 Monk requirement to Martial Arts 60

I did not change the requirements for the Justice Warrior because I could not find a skill that really fit this class. Leadership or Healing 60 are possible, but pigeonhole the Justice Warrior as an NPC user or a Healer when it could just as easily be a combat class.

As I made these changes, I began to wonder if there should be more than one way to achieve an advanced class. For instance, while the Defender class currently requires 20 Defense, what if a character could acheive this class with 20 Defense, 20 Magic Defense, or 20 Agility? All three skills are defensive, but a character currently can only use one to reach Defender. I have no idea how to code multiple options for class advancement, but I thought it was a good idea and wanted to know what you guys thought.

As always, thanks to Variaz for a great variant.

Riftor

[Variaz]

Now, this message is really from me!

hmmm... not too sure I like it all that much though...

For example, I do not agree with spellcraft 60 requirement for the High Mage. What if you want to invest in Elemental instead, which is likely? Plus, 60 is quite heavy... For the High Mage, I actually liked the level 5 mage requirement, since it's actually a direct upgrade of the Mage.

High Monk with a Martial Arts skill of 60 instead of Monk 10 requirement... Sounds good, but then, that means you can go directly from Apprentice to High Monk, theorically, without never playing the regular Monk. Since it's a direct upgrade of the Monk, it's logical to have Monk levels.

Elemental Lord doesn't need class requirements. It's not really an upgrade of any classes. But spellcraft 20 forces the player to weaken the melee power of the character, while you might want a melee oriented Elemental Lord. Like, focusing a lot of points in Element Strike/Fist of Elements, and Piercing Spells to use these abilities on immune bosses. Still...some may consider it fair I guess, but I don't like it too much.

While this file is certainly a welcome addition to the forge, I will not make this the new official classes.txt file. Also note that with 0.2.1, some classes will now use scripted abilities, so this file might need to be updated.

[riftor]

Thanks for the comments Variaz! I'll address the issues from easiest to hardest.

I used the number 60 because Shadow Stalkers require 60 stealth in Adelie's modified classes.txt, so I just used the value for all the "high" classes. I actually thought this value was a little extreme myself, but didn't want to seem like I was being too easy on players by decreasing it. I'm more than happy to lower these requirements. Maybe 40?

Regarding the Elementalists, I thought spellcraft improved all their abilities and Adelie wrote "It might be interesting to give the elemental lord a Spellcraft requirement as well". If I'm wrong about the across the board benefit, I wouldn't agree with the requirement either. This discussion does go back to the issue of whether it is possible to allow multiple ways to meet class requirements. It would be nice if you could become an Elementalist with either x points in Spellcraft or the Elemental skill. Is this possible?

Finally, I removed the class requirements for High Mage and High Monk in line with Portralis' spirit of customization. One of the game's selling points is the players' ability to design their characters however they want. High Mage, for example, is basically about specializing in a magic school. I could see a number of character builds that would benefit from school specialization without requiring the abilities of the Mage class. It seems that the original level requirements existed to make these "high" classes difficult to obtain, which is understandable given their power. Skill requirements still make the character work for the "high" class without being tied down to a specific path.

I could see how my conceptualization of classes could be controversial, so please let me know what you think. I'm happy to make changes again as soon as we agree on what they should be. Thank you oh great Variaz for listening to the input of a humble player.

Riftor

[Variaz]

Just checked Adelie's class file as posted in the suggestions, and Stalkers are set at 40 Stealth, not 60... 40 was what I originally set. 60 is too much for a skill that does not affect damages(until you actually become a Stalker).

Elemental Lord: Adelie simply removed the Warrior requirement. And I think it's fine that way, that class doesn't need further tuning...well, except maybe for one thing: You can use a licialhyd to easily change to the class. But I will probably make this impossible in future releases... 20 Str and 10 Int is actually a fine requirement that does not force any character builds.

High Mage: I agree that all abilities except the mana ability are compatible with Wisdom casting. And it's what I want too! But it's forcing spellcraft over elemental that I don't like... especially because High Mage, as you said, is about school specialization! As you said: "Skill requirements still make the character work for the "high" class without being tied down to a specific path.", but the fact that you need spellcraft over elemental actually forces you down a specific path! Skills are just as crucial to a character as abilities are you know! I understand your point of view though... it's just that High Mage was supposed to be an upgrade of the mage. But then, the class was created before wisdom-casting existed... I'd like to hear others opinions about this.

Forgot to comment the Defender! My view of the Defender is a big knight in heavy armor wearing a huge shield, and who is a melee fighter. Agility, while very helpful(mandatory?) to a successful AC-based build, mobility and jumping is not a Defender thing. Magic Defense? It has nothing to do with armor, shields and melee fighting. That doesn't concern the Defender the least. (Again, this is not true in term of an effective build. But it is in terms of what the Defender is all about!)

[adelie]

I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Elemental Lord: I think I was originally thinking of having a light spellcraft requirement, say 10 points. Kind of had a nice feel to it, as that's the point where you get the "Magic Blood" ability as well - thus, in a way, making the requirement be that the character have a decent bit of arcane energy flowing through their bodies before they start focusing it in an element. Flavorful, but comparing the class to the monster mage sold me on just keeping the requirements in the stats realm.

High Monk, Justice Warrior: I wouldn't want to see these classes lose their class level requirements, not just from a systems standpoint, but also from a roleplaying perspective. They feel best, at least to me as advancements for walking the difficult path of devotion. It doesn't really make sense that (and this is a build I've actually tried) a mage that focuses on martial arts to offset the mana casting limitations on armor could transfer directly to a high monk, without spending a long time on the lower path of the monk as well.

Shadow Stalker and Defender: These two classes seem to fit more in focusing on skills, than on a particular life path. I dropped the class requirements on both (and placed a requirement for defense on the defender) as it seemed to make the most sense that way. Both warriors and fighters make natural lead ins to the defender, but in the case of the fighter, they must prove some discipline in learning how to use their armor and shields effectively before they can make those skills really shine. For the shadow stalker, just dropping the class requirement makes some interesting possibilities for stealthy ranger, archer and the future hunter hybrids.

High Mage: This is a tough one. I rather like the focus on being an advanced mana caster, and don't like the stat requirements as they are if it's going to be wisdom -or- int class. One possible way around this is splitting the requirement to equal levels of int and wisdom and dropping the class requirement (thus to truly master magic, you must be capable on both paths). Alternatively, it might be interesting to see a new "High Priest" class, that focuses on enhancing wisdom casting, priestly abilities, and maybe a different set of schools (could be particularly interesting if the school expansions are brought into play, mages could focus on elemental, alteration and perception; priests on conjuration, healing and alteration).

[phlinn]

For the high mage, would it work to require Spellcraft + .75*(Alteration + elemental + ...) be greater than some cutoff? This gives a little more flexibility in requirements. I chose 3/4 of the specialty skills for the hell of it, based solely on intuition that they shouldn't be as useful as the generic skill for a general purpose class. Judging by the classes.txt file, it would require some changes elsewhere to make such a thing possible, but it seems useful.

[riftor]

Sorry for the delay in response. Real life got in the way. I have two more points to make and then I think I've beat this to death.

Point one: In response to Adelie's comment about the balance problems with a mage going immediately into high monk, there is a trade-off. First of all, while you do have the Martial Arts skill, you miss out on the AC boosting ability of monk, making you much more vulnerable. A character will be forced to compensate by pumping much more points into Agility, probably at the expense of other skills. By the time you get to high mage, you end up with a true hybrid class with mediocre abilities in both magic and a unarmed fighting.

It is currently possible to go from monk to high mage anyway. You just have to go through three levels of mage without spending any Ability points. Removing level requirements replaces a boring formality with the real goal of reaching x Spellcraft.

Point 2: I see I have a different conception of the classes, which is probably where we differ. I see the classes simply as collection of Abilities. It is up to each individual player to identify a role, such as Holy Defender, Woodland Bandit, or Holy Shadow Stalker, all of which are currently possible. I will go with whatever the group decides, but I prefer the classes to be as flexible as possible.

Let me know what you guys think.

[Variaz]

But advanced classes gives characters a goal to reach, and also add some feeling to the class. Take the Elemental Lord for example. The Elemental Lord is a Warrior/Mage class. Yes, you could get some Warrior and Mage abilities, focus only on one type of spells, and you could call a Warrior/Mage wielding a fire-branded sword and the 'Red Guard' shield(100% fire immunity, but 100% cold weakness), and casting exclusively fire-based spells a "Fire Lord". But some peoples will want more than this. They want a special title for their character, a title that adds some prestige(like the Prestige Classes in DnD). Or, they want to go one step farther with a specific theme. This is what advanced classes are all about.

The Elemental Lord, for example, expands the theme of Elemental Mastery. You focus on a single element so much that you learn to make a perfect fusion between the physical world and your magical element, thus resulting in abilities like Element Strike that does elemental damages based on melee damages. You learn to defend yourself against your element(Element Shield), use it to attack your enemies (Element Ball), and even the ability to pierce trough the special resistances an enemy would normally have against any kinds of magic(Piercing Spells). Yes, you can make a "Fire Ball" spell, but the "Fire Ball" Ability means you master it so much that it becomes a natural, innate ability, and thus does not requires mana or rituals to cast. You do it naturally, and casting fire becomes as easy as breathing for you.

Most of the advanced classes expands on a theme, or put the use of a skill to much more than what the skill usually do(like the Shadow Stalker, who becomes so stealthy he can make one with the shadows, and use this stealth ability to deliver attacks in the forms of Stealth Attack and Shadow Ball). Again, you could just be a Rogue/Mage with some darkness-based magic. But the Shadow Stalker brings this type of characters one step further, and makes an otherwise average skill into something really powerful. And again, it serves as a title of prestige. You're not just a common Rogue/Mage. You're a Shadow Stalker.