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Post by Variaz on Mar 19, 2008 8:52:39 GMT -5
If you went to angband.oook.cz in the last two days, you'll notice that I've created a Portralis survey thread. Big Al has a point: the user-interface hasn't kept up with Vanilla. It's true, I've focused more on the game's content rather than the user-inferface, but I've played a bit of Vanilla recently, and saw many new things such as a commands menu when you press enter, 32x32 tiles, and there's probably a couple of options that are new and not in Portralis. So I'm now creating a thread about the user-interface, and your suggestions about what could be done to update it. Other than Vanilla and a bit of ToME, I haven't really played other variants, so perhaps you'll have more ideas than I do. Of course, Portralis doesn't have to be a carbon copy of Vanilla or another variant, we can take the good and leave the bad. Things I think we should discuss: - Overall user-interface. How can we make it better, easier, etc... - Graphic modes. Should it be updated with 32x32 tiles? Should Portralis uses it's own set of tiles instead of the ones from Vanilla? Maybe we can be more ambitious and turn Portralis into a much more graphical game, such as isometric "3D" like ISO-Angband/ISO-ToME/Utumno?. - Mouse support. It has been mentionned in a couple of threads on the roguelike newsgroup and on oook.cz, and I'm wondering who's partial to it. This is another thing that would take a while to implement, as I don't really know how to implement mouse support. I would have to learn to do it first. - Options. So I've implemented the one everyone requuested, that is, the center_player option. But I'm sure there are more. A lot of these things would take a while to implement, so right now, this is more of a brain storming. Don't expect the new upload to have a fully revamped interface or anything, after all, gameplay should remain the focus of the game! But I'd like to hear opinions on how we can update the dated interface.
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Post by sekira on Mar 19, 2008 9:39:48 GMT -5
I have a couple questions in relation to my user interface experience...
The use old target by default option doesn't seem to work, or I can't figure out how to make it work. I am sick of having to retarget every time I cast a spell. I'm actually used to changing the target before I cast if I'm going to target a different mob/location.
Is there a repeat command? I can't find it.
Some of the actions take lots of key presses, so some additional information on macros would be nice, maybe a really in depth tutorial in the in-game help?
And speaking of the in-game help, I really like the way TOME will let you use your arrow keys to move around from topic to topic in the help system, and just use enter when you have a topic highlighted, and it goes into the help for that topic.
Basically, the way it works is some of the words and phrases in the help are like links to other help pages, so if you are in the main menu, every menu entry is a link to a help page or a sub menu, but when you get to an actual help file, even some of the words and phrases in the file are links to other related help files. You hit the down key to go to the next link on the screen, or if there are no more links on the screen it scrolls down instead, until a link shows up, and then it highlights that link, etc, etc. The text on the screen has three colors (maybe 4?)
One color for regular text (not link)
One color for a link that is not the current link that you have arrowed to
One color for a link that is the current link that you have arrowed to
(maybe) a color for a link that you have already visited since you started help this time?
Some links wouldn't even have to go to another page, they might just scroll down to a place on the current page?
I would also like to see a detailed description of each command, in the same page where they are listed, instead of just the list. I might even be able to help with writing some of the command detail helps.
ok, so that got a little long. Really I think mouse support isn't worth the effort, and going more graphical (isometric, or pseudo 3d) is not important to me at all. Come to think of it those things might actually take away from my personal game experience, rather than add to it.
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Post by Variaz on Mar 19, 2008 10:13:41 GMT -5
Will have to try it. I'm pretty sure there was one, but don't remember which one it was... Was it '0'? To be honest, macros is a part of the game I've never touched, not even sure I know how to use them properly. Yes, the help system could be a lot better and easier, not to mention it needs to be updated in terms of content anyway. Personally, I think the 'U' menu could be redone too(and all similar menus). First, it doesn't look too nice, and second, there's a limit in terms of how many items it can display. And the code is way too long, way too complex, and would be a pain to convert to lua, thus limiting the creation of several custom abilities that would need menus.
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grindorin
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Das Haenchen lebt.
Posts: 151
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Post by grindorin on Mar 19, 2008 12:18:54 GMT -5
'n' is the default repeat command. It is a little odd to use sometimes though, depending on what ye are doing. Its behaviour isn't always consistent from action to action in my experience.
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Post by phlinn on Mar 19, 2008 12:30:32 GMT -5
I would like to see a way to set combos to always ability x/always combo but prompt for ability/always off/prompt but use default/all prompts. Right now, combos are cumbersome, and that is the primary reason i never use them. when I'm meleeing, i like the ability to mindlessly just move into a target, and hold down the space bar until my attacks are done.
On a related note, a way to change the attack message to a single string of "You swing 10 times, with 5 misses, 2 blocks, 2 returns, and 1 hit." The current separate message for every hit might be nice if the messages were more detailed.
Disable the make spell option when hitting 'm' in the dungeon, to reduce key presses. That might be macro-able for spells, although like you I haven't dug into macros.
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Post by sekira on Mar 19, 2008 13:04:33 GMT -5
Phlinn, I'm not certain I understood you completely, but it looks like you want to set up an automatic use of combat feats before you attack a monster.
This can sort of be accomplished by using macros.
Lets say you have the feats spin attack, light strike, and jump (lets say they are a, b, c for simplicity) and you have 20 combat feats skill and 10 blows per round.
Suppose you want three combos, one for magic returners, one for physical returners, and one for non-returners
go into the macros screen by typing @
when it asks what to do, choose create macro
it will then ask for two things, the macro (meaning the key you press to execute the macro commands) and the commands themselves. before you get here, you should know which keys you want for your macros (look in the commands help file, there are a lot of keys that aren't used with the control key, so they make good macros)
after you have chosen the macro key, you can put in the commands it will execute.
for example, you have a macro for fighting physical returning bosses, and you want it to do 3 elemental strikes and then jump to get away so you don't do any normal blows against the boss. I would set up the macro so you can hit it after you have started the attack, and the first "Use a combat feat for this blow? y/n/none" question pops up. You will want to do a command string like this:
ybybybyc
which is just putting in the yes to each question, and the feat choice for each question. The next thing you see after you hit the macro should be "You hit the monster with light strike, You hit the monster with light strike. You hit the monster with light strike. Choose a location to jump." and the choose location cursor should be active.
If it is your "normal enemy" macro, then the command string would be
yayayannnnnnyc
meaning do 3 spin attacks, 6 normal attacks, then jump to safety.
You will need to play with the command string. It may be I'm forgetting a step for each blow, like needing to hit space (\s) after each blow, or return (\r I think) after each blow or something. Just fight normally a few monsters, keeping careful track of every single keypress you use (writing it down helps) and then use that for your macro command string.
When you get more blows or more combat feats skill or a different combat feat you want to use in a common combo situation, then just go in and edit your macros adding a 'n' for an extra blow, or a 'ya' for an extra spin attack and so on and so forth.
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Post by sekira on Mar 19, 2008 13:05:08 GMT -5
Grindorin, thanks for the info on the 'n' command.
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Post by sekira on Mar 19, 2008 13:19:41 GMT -5
Variaz, on the topic of the blows and combat feats issue, there are 2 more options for the "Use a combat feat for this blow?" question.
I haven't used combat feats in a while, but as I recall, there are 3 options right now
y - yes, use a combat feat (goes to choose combat feat menu)
n - no, use a normal blow (performs the blow, then goes to next blow and the "Use a combat feat for this blow?" question pops up again)
o? - none, don't use any more combat feats, just finish the round with normal blows. (not really sure about this one, I could be wrong about it's existence)
I would also like to add the following two options to the possible answers to the "Use a combat feat for this blow?" question.
s - save, (only available when you have more blows left than you have combat feat blows left) this causes you to perform normal blows until you have the same number of blows left as you have combat feat blows left, then it will ask you again if you want to use a combat feat for this blow. The idea is "Save my remaining combat feat blows for the end of the round", useful for the tactic of doing most of your feats at the beginning of the round, then doing normal blows to use them up, then either throwing or kicking or smashing your opponent away from you, or jumping away from your opponent.
l - last, answer this question exactly as you answered the last "Use a combat feat for this blow?" question, including the type of feat if the last answer was a yes. It just saves choosing the type of feat if you are doing a yes and it is like the last one.
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Post by phlinn on Mar 19, 2008 14:22:27 GMT -5
Sekira, thanks for the macro information. I'd still like to see a user friendly interface for defaulting combat feats, but macros provide a partial workaround. If a monster dies in the middle of a string of attacks, won't it mess up the macro though?
The idea was to be able to set a mode for handling combat feats, where if I set it to 'always do combat feat a', it will determine my max number of combat feats as normal, and until my combat feats run out it will take action a. The reason macros are a partial workaround is that if my combat feat skill is say 23, i may or may not get a 5th feat in a round. The slashes were used to separate what I thought would be useful settings, although always off would be pretty pointless.
Edited after seeing kipar's message below.
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Post by sekira on Mar 19, 2008 14:54:37 GMT -5
Hmm, I think you are correct. If a monster dies in the middle of using a macro, it will happily continue to do the rest of the macro commands anyway afaik. That really could get you killed.
I guess that is a bad idea after all.
I think I like your idea for combos. You could create multiple combos too. It would be like declaring a macro, but if the monster you are attacking dies, it discards the remainder of the combo commands. Then when you get that first "Use a combat feat for this attack?" question, you could hit d to do your default combo, or c to choose a combo from a list.
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kipar
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Posts: 201
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Post by kipar on Mar 19, 2008 15:02:16 GMT -5
1. About tiles: I like tiles very much and 32x32 makes angband looks like a really different game (comparing to 16x16). And monster tiles are adding charm too, of course it should be optional, but i prefer monster tiles in all variants. 3D and isometric IMHO is just bug source and aren't looks nice. 2. Options: - reverse XP display will be nice - preserve mode - just to be Completely sure it's Really on and artifacts won't be lost - auto clear more prompts - very useful in some big battles
3. Other: - add a class screen to "C" command. Display there all player classes, their class levels, and possibly list of all class abilities. - add spells screen to "C" command: display all learned effects there - allow disabling of some annoying features ( just add commands from "U" menu): - enable/disable combat feats skill (i don't use them but if some of my equipment give 1 point of combat feats I throw it off because it means these annoying messages in every battle) - set minimal level of damage to be protected by GG/Soul Guard, to don't make me afraid of poison which repeatedly display "Guard y/n" until healed - about help - while there are no multiplatform support I think it'll be better to use win .hlp files or something like this: for me it's easier to read txt files then use this online help with bad scroll system and white letters on black display. But if online help will be coloured and hyperlinked as in ToME it's even better. - as in Hengband escape key equals to many-many spacebar presses: it'll be really great feature because it's allow create errorproof macroses and holding spacebar key is just boring. Can't remember now other suggestions, I'll write later them.
And of course it's just dreams because i'm greatly enjoying Portralis without all that stuff.
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Post by Variaz on Mar 19, 2008 15:25:33 GMT -5
What's the "Reverse XP display"?
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grindorin
Champion
Das Haenchen lebt.
Posts: 151
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Post by grindorin on Mar 19, 2008 15:26:14 GMT -5
XP needed to level up, instead of current XP.
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Post by Gando on Mar 19, 2008 16:41:41 GMT -5
One thing that always bugs me is the lack of the "clear --more--" option. There are alot of little things that could be improved Im sure but mainly by adding options and perhaps as some said earlier better clearer instructions. I also usually go with the xp to level up when I can find it. I dont particularly care for graphical displays as they tend to obscure the game not make them better. That said alot of people need the visual excitement to keep them hooked in so by all means do that...just dont make it the default please.
Kipar said: " - about help - while there are no multiplatform support I think it'll be better to use win .hlp files or something like this: for me it's easier to read txt files then use this online help with bad scroll system and white letters on black display. But if online help will be coloured and hyperlinked as in ToME it's even better."
I disagree entirely with thsi statement about platform. dHTML/css/javascript are easy and platform independant largely (if you stick to wc3 specifications for the most part, though the user agent still has alot to say about how things are implemented.) And you could host it if you decided to give it an internet presence.
-mouse support? I dont think that is very much needed atm. Almost all your player base comes from Vanilla (old school) and so do not need a mouse/crutch.
One Option Id like to see is a 'center player on edge'...ie: the screen centers you not every step which is insanely annoying...but when you approach the edge of the screen so that you do not die to offscreen nonsense without ever having a chance. (Yes you can use the 'L' command for this and when I do remember thats sufficient but having the game automatically do this would make life a little easier.
Id like the option to turn combat feats off.
Id like to see more information displayed when you list a spell (power, duration, radius if any, etc) using p* or mc*. Currently I end up with very long spell names so I can remind myself which spells do what and for how long etc.
Licialyds need their own game screen I think, though right now to be honest I dont think Ive ever needed to use one in game. If you make something like that which is unique to the game it should be developed and given some flavor and niftyness to make it special. (What about a class that focuses on them and uses/makes them? Surely there must be a way to make low level ones drop in dungeons?
RE: Artifacts and item identification....I love that you dont have to worry about finding cursed items for the most part. THAT SAID I think its rather a bad thing that because of that you know what things are as soon as you pick them up. Imho the Rogue type classes (and mages for those who find Identify spells) should have an advantage here to offset their weaker direct combat abilities. This is one of the things I think Vanilla got right for the most part. At the very least artifacts, specials, and tweakables need to not change to their colors from purple until Ided. I realize this might not be a popular suggestion but I think since its still at core a dungeon hack/rogue type game the finding of nifty items should be high on the list of things that are exciting about the game...not finding purples and going ..."hmmm if I cant use this Im sure it will sell..."
On a related note (and imho just as important) bring back randarts. Or at least expand the list of artifacts in the game. It is nice to know that the yellow dagger I found on level one is 'Bee Sting' and that it has a poison brand if I need to kill a phys immune boss. But imho it would increase the excitement if the yellow dagger I found on level 1 were possibly any number of 20 different items.
There are hundreds of ways in which the game can be improved and made more interesting. Most of them Id strongly suggest become options rather than main features as what is fun for one might be hard for another and what makes the game playable for the other might make it boring for the one.
Just my 2.5 cents. Currently Im awaiting the next major release before I play some more as Ive somewhat burned out on the game ( and have others to play) but this thread seems promising.
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Post by Variaz on Mar 19, 2008 19:07:07 GMT -5
The fact that they are never dropped is actually a bug that I haven't found the cause yet. In fact, you'll notice that for some reasons, Licialhyds are not displayed properly if you drop them. It's kind of like they are not registered properly in the game...
Random artifacts would be pretty much just beefed up purples, as all non-artifacts are random. Specials gets their own randomly generated names and extremely high stats, so they're kind of like random artifacts in their own rights. And I do plan on expanding the a_info. But I want each artifacts to be really unique and themed, or have some unique quirks or abilities. That's what sets them apart from other items.
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