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Post by sekira on Mar 13, 2008 18:12:45 GMT -5
ok Here is my build for a dwarven crafter / enchanter Start as a mage | Level | Skill | Stat | AP | | 2 | 5 Spellcraft | 2 INT | Saved (2 unspent) | | 3 | 5 Spellcraft (8 w/penalty) | 2 INT | Saved (3 unspent) | | 4 | 5 Crafting | 2 INT | Saved (4 unspent) | | 5 | 5 Crafting (15 w/ bonus) | 2 INT | Saved (5 Unspent) | | 6 | 5 Crafting (22 w/ bonus) | 2 INT | Saved (6 Unspent) | | 7 | 5 Crafting (30 w/ bonus) | 2 INT | Saved (7 Unspent) | | 8 | 5 Alchemy | 2 INT | Saved (8 Unspent) | | 9 | 5 Alchemy (10) | 2 INT | Saved (9 Unspent) | | 8 | 5 Alchemy (15) | 2 INT | Saved (10 Unspent) | | 11 | 5 Alchemy (20) | 2 INT | Saved (11 Unspent) |
At this point I plan to go to enchanter, as I will have the prerequisites, to get to that point I plan to cast lots of little bolt spells, run like hell a lot and use spellcraft magic blood and healing trick to get mana back. At level 5 I would of course start crafting little con items, maybe a couple points of agility, defense, or magic defense on them to help me stay alive. It will get much easier at level 7, when crafting is at 30. with 11 APs to spend, I actually won't spend too many yet. I'm thinking 1 to 3 points in defense transfer (5 at most), and 1 point in enchanter's mana. Saving rest for level 6 and level 10 abilities. Still going the caster route, but with 5 more crafting and 5 more alchemy, and 1 or 2 more int from the class change. | 12 | 5 Crafting (43 w/bonuses) | 2 CON | Saved (~8 Unspent) | | 13 | 5 Crafting (52 w/bonuses) | 2 CON | Saved (~9 Unspent) | | 14 | 5 Crafting (60 w/bonuses) | 2 STR | Saved (~10 Unspent) | | 15 | 5 Crafting (70 w/bonuses) | 2 STR | Saved (~11 Unspent) |
Ok at this point I'm going to switch from magic to melee, and hopefully I'll be class level 6 to get etch runes to help me with the transfer. I plan to put a bare minimum of 1 pt in etch runes, but probably 3 or more. I might raise defense transfer to 5 at this point, or I might leave it, have to see how I like it. I will recraft my magic eq into crazy melee eq, including some major dex which I plan to totally neglect with my stat gains. I get racial bonuses for str and con, so I'll focus my stat gains there. I also plan to put swords skill in my eq and some defense, agility, and magic defense. As for my remaining levels, I'll put 1 pt in agility (for jump... I'm assuming that will get me the feat, and equipment skill in agility will increase the jump distance from there?) and 20 pts in swords (for parry and sword spin) right off, next 5 levels (actually, I might do that starting at level 12... leaving my crating at 35 for a bit, not sure). remaining 4 pts from level 20 will be crafting, as will the rest of my skill points from that point on. my stat gains will alternate between con and str pretty much forever from here on. I'll save the rest of my ap's until I get class level 10 enchanter then they will all go into improved enchanting as will future levels from there on. I'll have 147 crafting by level 26 this way. I don't think I'll switch to warrior or fighter or another melee class at all... I would get more str and con, but I would loose part of my bonus to crafting, and a lot of int and mana to boot. Even in full out melee mode, I'll still rely on spells for certain things so I don't want to nerf myself in that area, I don't think it would be worth it Should be fun. ;D |
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Post by Gando on Mar 14, 2008 1:32:37 GMT -5
Defense Transfer is THE best ability in the set of enchanter abilities (aside from craft fighting if you go that route). Id say a minimum of 13 points is needed if you want a decent AC.
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Post by Variaz on Mar 14, 2008 11:25:21 GMT -5
With +50% to Crafting, +25% to Defense and Defense Transfer, Dwarves makes the ultimate Defenders.  |
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Post by phlinn on Mar 14, 2008 12:24:36 GMT -5
Well, the -25% to agility offsets the +25% to defense at least up to a point. The crafting bonus is sweet if you are focusing on raw AC in particular. If you want resistances as well, human might be a better choice.
Also, the -25% wisdom hurts in some ways, as enchanter is int based, but mana is degraded in heavy armor, which is what the defender class uses for several abilities. You don't need those abilities, but with a high base AC I can't imagine not getting them.
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Post by Gando on Mar 14, 2008 15:15:19 GMT -5
Enchanter Mana is a great solution to that problem. it gives you a mana bonus based on the BASE abilities of the item (ie: heavy armor = higher base ac = better mana bonus to offset the penalty, particularly if your crafting gets high enough to make really good armor.)
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Post by vastin on Jul 13, 2008 22:22:53 GMT -5
Well, my crafter was doing quite well for himself - looks pretty badass on paper, and has been killing most of the quest bosses he reaches in a single round so far. However, he just - somehow - died in a single round to a Kobold Elite Spearman or something of that nature. I was so shocked I jumped through the death and dump screen before I really registered what had happened, so I didn't see the details. All I know is that he was at full HP, fighting a group of under-level kobolds in the mid levels of an easy dungeon. Nothing in the last I-can't-count-how-many levels has ever hit him for more than 10% of his HP. This character has never even had to use a teleport scroll and maybe 2 healing potions in his 22lvl career. He died instantly, from full to 0 in a single round, to a melee opponent - I'm not even sure he was in range of an elite. That's all I know for sure. If physical returning was working, that would have done it as his damage code would kill him instantly, but other than that I have NO IDEA what effect or happenstance could possibly have killed him, and I'm looking for anyone to hazard a guess so I can figure out how to prevent it from happening next time.  |
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Post by vastin on Jul 13, 2008 22:36:39 GMT -5
Defense Transfer is THE best ability in the set of enchanter abilities (aside from craft fighting if you go that route). Id say a minimum of 13 points is needed if you want a decent AC. I think I have to argue in favor of Improved Enchanting over Craft Fighting. Each point of Craft fighting converts 5 of your crafting points into fighting skills, while each point of Improved Enchanting lets you put up to 10 more points into whatever dedicated weapon skill you desire (or pretty much anything else), so it wins out in flexibility and comes to about twice the sheer power. The one exception I can think of is the dual sword/gun combo actually mentioned in the ability description - but even then Improved Enchanting would equal Craft Fighting point for point, and exceed it in all other cases. Defense Transfer I'm still trying to figure out. It looks pretty good in theory, but you seem to need a fair number of points into it to get a worthwhile effect? Gotta experiment with crafting low level armors to high armor values and transferring off onto non-armor items to see how that goes... I can't imagine putting enough points into this to shift my Mithril Full Plate into some robes - unless maybe I was a High Monk. My personal favorite so far is Essense Transfer. Couldn't play a Melee Enchanter type without a couple points in that one. |
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Post by vastin on Jul 13, 2008 23:25:56 GMT -5
Well, the -25% to agility offsets the +25% to defense at least up to a point. The crafting bonus is sweet if you are focusing on raw AC in particular. If you want resistances as well, human might be a better choice. Also, the -25% wisdom hurts in some ways, as enchanter is int based, but mana is degraded in heavy armor, which is what the defender class uses for several abilities. You don't need those abilities, but with a high base AC I can't imagine not getting them. The penalties to agility and wisdom don't really factor in at all. Bonuses derived from items aren't subject to those penalties, and you should never put a single 'natural' point into those as a crafter, they should all come from items. You won't get the special abilities of having a 70 Agility - but you'll get a 70 Agility easily enough if that's your goal. Honestly, you don't need that special ability if you've got enough spare points to dump into Magic Defense - which you should! Put all your 'natural' stat points into Str and Con where you get bonuses - unless you just don't want any more. All your other stat points should come from item tweaks, which aren't penalized. As a dwarvish enchanter I have to say - I'd have a VERY hard time coming up with a reason to put a single 'natural' skill point into anything other than Crafting - every single point you put into crafting can translate into as many as 3.85 tweak points! That's just... disgusting. The only other skill I've ever purchased is 20pts in Alchemy in order to unlock Enchanter, because you can't buy that skill with tweak points (and the Enchanter bonus to crafting pays off those pts by lvl 20 or so). |
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Post by Variaz on Jul 14, 2008 7:33:49 GMT -5
Dwarves gets a natural 50% to Crafting, which is a lot. So with 100 natural Crafting points, they get 150% instead. Now, that 150 is then increased by 25% by the Enchanter, which becomes 187. You almost get 2 points per skill points spent! Keep in mind, however, that once you reach Crafting 300, weapons base damages increase will cap, so at this points, it might not be a bad idea to put some natural points into a weapon, especially if you want Swords or Polearms, because their last feats are really useful. The last Blunt feat I recently tried, and is also very effective. As a dwarf though, you'll probably take axes, and just 5 natural points into axes gives you a very useful attack. The two other feats are good, but aren't combat feats, but still, you should have enough defense with your crafted armors to be able to use them without too much risks. But I'd go for at least 5 points, considering that the way Chop is coded, it reduce defense BEFORE trying to hit the enemy, so it's really effective, especially with some Combat Feats. Here's 6 natural points you can spend on non-Crafting skills that will help you: - 5 Axes, for Chop. - 1 Agility, for Jump. Then craft an item with +5 Combat Feats and that will make this investment quite worthwhile. |
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Post by vastin on Jul 14, 2008 10:03:05 GMT -5
Yeah. I can't comment on the really high ranges of crafting yet as I haven't gotten there - but I'm also not sure that's necessary. My 23'd lvl crafter has broken into the 1million+ damage/turn range and has an armor rating that I believe is somewhere in the 100's of thousands (I stopped paying attention to it a while ago). Those stats are about two orders of magnitude beyond anything else I've played so far, so it seems out of whack. Also, I don't think a crafter really cares about the armor/damage bonuses on their weapons - it's the tweak points. That 23'd level character above is getting 41 tweak points per item. So that's a +20 speed ring, or an amulet of +8 attacks, or +41 strength/weapon skill/constitution/defense/spellcraft/magic defense. It just seems like the skill sort of replaces the normal advancment rate in the game with something vastly superior. There are probably only a few builds in portralis at this point that wouldn't be made far more powerful by being an X/Crafter. Priest/Crafter, Warrior/Crafter, even Mage/Crafter. Maybe not Monster Mage - do they wear equipment? I haven't tried yet. Even a non-dwarf character can pretty much double their skill points by putting them into crafting - and crafting is the only way to translate skill points into Stat points on such a large scale. Dwarves just make the whole processess even more efficient. It's true you don't get the bonus abilities for skill points gained from crafting - but if you really need special attacks then its easier to get most of those from AP. Whirling Leap is a big winner at higher levels, as is counter-attack. If you want to see something truly insane, take a super-statted crafting character (lvl 22 say) with 1 AP in whirling leap and 8 attacks, and put 40 of your crafting tweak points into Combat Feats. Your character will make 8 whirling attacks per turn for, oh, I don't know, probably 50k-200k damage per target per leap... He'll literally bounce through and evaporate an entire room in that single sequence of attacks with no danger of returning or any of that - only physical immunes will even slow things down. In a well packed room that character is probably going to inflict in excess of 3 million points of damage in a single attack sequence. I ideal conditions it could inflict upwards of 10 million. |
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Post by vastin on Jul 14, 2008 12:28:58 GMT -5
Additional minor optimization for the Dwarven Enchanter:
Don't put any points directly into Alchemy to become an enchanter - keep them all in Crafting for the bonuses and tweak points.
Instead, buy a couple scrolls of Item Leveling and build up a pair of secondary Alchemy items and use them to get your 20 alchemy to become an enchanter (I suggest your light source and missiles, as those slots can't be crafted anyway). As of level 10 you should be able to buy the scrolls cheaply using a set of charisma gear, and you can just swap out those alchemy items for another pair of leveled crafting enhancement items whenever you are building a new gear set - probably keep them equipped normally though in order to gain the big potion effect bonuses while you are in the dungeon. Great dependable healing source if you aren't a caster.
Only use real SP in alchemy in order to buy the alchemical branding/resistance skills, though I haven't gotten any use out of those to date. I think I'd much rather have the extra tweak points to jack up my Constitution or life bonuses than have the extra resistances.
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Post by Gando on Jul 14, 2008 14:54:39 GMT -5
Additional minor optimization for the Dwarven Enchanter: Don't put any points directly into Alchemy to become an enchanter - keep them all in Crafting for the bonuses and tweak points. Instead, buy a couple scrolls of Item Leveling and build up a pair of secondary Alchemy items and use them to get your 20 alchemy to become an enchanter (I suggest your light source and missiles, as those slots can't be crafted anyway). As of level 10 you should be able to buy the scrolls cheaply using a set of charisma gear, and you can just swap out those alchemy items for another pair of leveled crafting enhancement items whenever you are building a new gear set - probably keep them equipped normally though in order to gain the big potion effect bonuses while you are in the dungeon. Great dependable healing source if you aren't a caster. Only use real SP in alchemy in order to buy the alchemical branding/resistance skills, though I haven't gotten any use out of those to date. I think I'd much rather have the extra tweak points to jack up my Constitution or life bonuses than have the extra resistances. Sounds like a perfect justification to nerf tweaked items a bit...tweak ed items should not give alchemy or crafting points at all. |
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Post by Variaz on Jul 14, 2008 17:20:52 GMT -5
Until you realize that at Alchemy 100, it takes 4 or 5 items to make a specific resistance to 100%. This can turn tough boss fights into laughably easy ones. Craft 10 items to get Fire and Dark to 100, and you can beat Zailab the Lich without any worries. Shaugma will be laughably easy with 100% Water. The best way to use Alchemic Resistance is to combine it with the Enchanter's Essence Transfer. Find a Dark-Branded weapon, then transfer it to 99 Bronze Arrows. You're set for a while. Do that for the 12 other elements available for the brands. Dark is probably the best resistance you can get(other than Chaos and Physical, but they're not generated randomly for brands). Granted, the dwarf's bonus to Crafting is so high that it makes you think twice before raising anything else. But for many other races, Alchemy is really good. Here's some examples: Gnomes have 50% to Alchemy. They're to Alchemy what Dwarves are to Crafting. Can reach high alchemy skills early, and get a lot of resistances! Kobolds. Two words: Poison Daggers. Celestials. Make enough items, and you can get Dark immunity. Then make yourself some Light-branded weapons and use Essence Fusion to change damages types, and have fun. Demons. Read above paragraph, but invert the instances of Light and Dark. Zulgors. Let's see... Get Dark, Fire and Poison immunities. Combined to the zulgor's Chaos immunity, is there anything that can hurt you at all? Oh, and anything you choose as your brand other than physical will turn to chaos, to which they 25% bonus damages. |
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Post by vastin on Jul 16, 2008 10:16:42 GMT -5
But can't you temporarily raise your alchemy up to 100 (or even 400) with leveling items? A crafter at this point can start making their own leveled items from scrolls at the rare shops at level 6 using charisma gear. (The fact that leveled items can also be used to enhance your Crafting is yet another major power bump for the class, as it represents a whole new source of tweak points.)
Granted you'd still need a base alchemy score of 20 in order to get the alchemical branding/resistance abilities, but after that the % you can apply will be determined by your overall score, not your base score?
Not sure... I'm unclear on when skills use your base score or your final score in many cases.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 16, 2008 17:47:08 GMT -5
Hmm...you're right about levelable items. Crafting and Alchemy probably needs to be disabled for item leveling.
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