Martial arts, fighting, and knuckles

[phlinn]

Currently, if I equip a knuckle in my main hand, I do not get bonus attacks from martial arts. I do not get the ability to attack with my off hand using regular unarmed attacks. I do not benefit from a high monk's disabling blows. I do not benefit from a fighter's unarmed fighting bonus. Should some of these checks in the scripts check for the itemskill being MA?

As it is, I see very little value in using knuckles. Barring a special knukle, or a way out of depth knuckle, fists will perform better with even a few points.

[Variaz]

Actually, you speak the truth. Knuckles are hardly worth it. They are more some sort of legacy from old version of NewAngband, where they added considerable bonuses. Now they're not really worth it compared to other types of weapons.

From a realistic point of view, it's also hard to imagine bonus from gloves and knuckles being cumulative.

Perhaps they should be turned into gloves. They would give great bonus, but would not provide actual AC bonus.

[sekira]

This might be an old thread, but I just wanted to point out that with the weapon kata changes, knuckles are now actually quite good weapons. The only problem is that they don't get all the 2nd hand attacks that unarmed martial arts grants. With 26 pts in dual wield (20 of it base points to unlock the ambidexterity feat) you can have maximum attacks and no to_h penalty with knuckles.

The only penalty in this case is the inability to block with martial arts while wearing weapons. Normally, martial arts weapon kata users will use their weapon's parry feat to block with their weapons, but since knuckles use martial arts for both the weapon skill and the martial arts weapon kata bonus, then they can't block using the martial arts block and dodge feat, as that requires unarmed combat to use.

[Gando]

Im thinking Knuckles/Claws should be a special case type...they should ADD to the todmg but not the tohit or tododge. And they should use all of the rest of the martial arts feats.

[phlinn]

Well, with the new mods, katas with claws have a big advantage over other weapons. You don't need a separate weapon skill to raise damage. That might be worth not having blocks. The main thing I still don't like about using weapons with martial arts is the inability to use certain abilities, such as disabling blows, ki punch, etc. I think that's what Gando was referring to. Of course, it's perfectly possible to use defense transfer to add a block chance to each claw if you want to make a crafter monk.

Edit: They are especially useful for someone who is currently a monk, who is penalized for the regular weapon skills.

[sekira]

Gando: If I'm reading your post correctly, you are suggesting that knuckles should add their base damage roll to your unarmed base damage roll, and that they should be compatible with both the martial arts skill feats, and I would guess the monk and high monk abilities. Is that right?

I just would like to say that being able to get martial arts damage plus weapon damage on top of that, and also have a blue in that slot would be way overpowered. That doesn't even take into consideration the extra benefit of using all the feats and abilities that were designed to be used with no weapons, now with the added benefit of a weapon.

Phlinn: good observations, though I don't agree about the disabling blows and ki punch, for the reasons I gave above.

There is another method of parrying with knuckles besides defense transfer...

The Dual wield feat Dual Block. I'm not sure, but that might even give you two chances to block every attack. With a high dex that would be very powerful, but like I said, I'm not really sure about that, as the help file is ambiguous on that point. Care to clarify, V?

Of course, 70 base skill points in dual wield doesn't come easy in the beta, but maybe with the next chapter...

[Variaz]

Dual Block is a single block test. The concept is that you use both weapons at the same time to block an incoming melee attack.

[sekira]

Hmm, that makes me wonder...

If you have swords skill >= 10 and dual wield >= 70, how many block chances do you get?

what if you have two weapons with base ac and dual wield >= 70?

[Variaz]

Dual Block should always be a single test, though separate tests can be made for regular blocking.