Gando's 5.2.3 notes

[Gando]

Trying to figure something out that's been puzzling me. The music conversion of instruments to different elements. How is that done? If it is automatic then it doesn't actually work as Sound element monsters are still 100% immune. If it is activated what is the activation? ('A' does not do the trick, nor does 'K' or 'U')

[Variaz]

I believe it should be automatic, provided you use the right type of elemental effect.

[Variaz]

Feb 9, 2012 1:34:21 GMT -5 Gando said:

In other news the thievery bonus for stealing is being counted by the game as an enchanted crafted item which is not only klugee but also seems highly unfair and a huge disqualifier for the ability. Why bother stealing things for a puny bonus when you can find items with better stats in general just by fighting? Not a good incentive to be a dedicated Rogue that's for sure.

I believe it will only do this if you steal a non-magical item. Not intentional, but I'm pretty sure stealing magic items from higher level enemies won't mark them as crafted.

To really benefit from Thievery, you have to steal items from the elites/bosses/uniques you encounter. This way, you get the same items that you'd get out of beating the enemies, with the Thievery bonus ON TOP of the bonus already on the item. It's not really meant to farm easy enemies till you get full set of free enchanted gear. If you do this, don't expect anything too great.

[Gando]

Feb 9, 2012 22:23:23 GMT -5 Variaz said:

Feb 9, 2012 1:34:21 GMT -5 Gando said:

In other news the thievery bonus for stealing is being counted by the game as an enchanted crafted item which is not only klugee but also seems highly unfair and a huge disqualifier for the ability. Why bother stealing things for a puny bonus when you can find items with better stats in general just by fighting? Not a good incentive to be a dedicated Rogue that's for sure.

I believe it will only do this if you steal a non-magical item. Not intentional, but I'm pretty sure stealing magic items from higher level enemies won't mark them as crafted.



To really benefit from Thievery, you have to steal items from the elites/bosses/uniques you encounter. This way, you get the same items that you'd get out of beating the enemies, with the Thievery bonus ON TOP of the bonus already on the item. It's not really meant to farm easy enemies till you get full set of free enchanted gear. If you do this, don't expect anything too great.

Monster I stole from was a Mature Blue Dragon...not exactly an "easy monster"... the insinuation is really annoying.

[Gando]

So. Yes I did finally manage to complete both the Stealthy Viper quest line and the Main quest line as far as it goes. Now I guess I can rest on my laurels so to speak. But here are some comments first.

Aside from the UI improvements that are needed and the multitude of English grammar errors that I plan to weed out eventually, there are a few things in the game design itself I feel could be improved.

I don't mean the return of the other classes. Obviously those are lacking to make the game as rich as it used to be. And I don't mean the reimplementation of the skills that are currently busted. Those will come in time I trust.

1) the diversity (or lack there of) of the item creation systems. As it stands around midway through the game you have to farm for gold to get the high level scrolls that give your items Leveling and maximize that leveling to your level. The most desirable/obtainable items are not the artifacts and blues you may find laying about though they will certainly do in a pinch. (They are typically a sight better than violet/pink items) The most desirable items are non magical gear of high quality material. Particularly weapons because finding the weapon you have chosen to specialize in the best qualities can be next to impossible.

The formula for making this work is: Farm for gold, get scrolls, stock pile them, find nonmagical items you'd like to enchant. Use magic item scrolls on them. Give them leveling. Max their levels and spend the points. Now you are ready (almost) to face the bosses.

I am not against an item based game. I enjoy item collecting as much as anyone but it feels like items are so balanced for the early game as to be unfun and so weak for the later game to be useless unless you manage to get lucky with a rare find.

2) Another thing relating to items that irks the completionist in me is the inability to re-locate artifacts once they have been placed on a level. If you don't find them on that level they are GONE forever until you start a brand new character. That to me sucks.

While I am saying these things I do thing items have improved. They used to suck a lot more. Now they just aren't quite as fun as I think they could be. The fact that the highest material you can possibly find (at incredible risk to your life/limbs) is Adamantite but we know there are higher grades which makes for a miserable player.

Mithril is even quite rare showing up only very infrequently unmagical. The key being that random Magic Items tend to be bad. (You really don't want to be wearing Mithril Boots with +23 to Axes when you are needing +anything to spell casting for example.) That isn't to say you shouldn't wear those boots when you find them if you can't find anything better. But the fact that you have to is rather pathetic.

Where are the Specials?? Clearly not in the first 80 levels of the game. (I made it to around depth 180 (level 90) something this time around and found 0 specials. Also not found: any material above Adamantite as I said before and no music components not sold in the M shops and not even the best ones of those.)

3)The Charisma nerf for buying/selling items is quite odd. Instead of being able to sell your found items for MORE gold than a normal adventurer you can buy them back for less gold than they are worth. This still allows for exploiting rebuying without rewarding the assiduous collector. I'd rather see the collector rewarded (shops not rebuying gear they have sold would fix this problem while still allowing the player to buy back mistakenly sold goods.) Not that gold farming is THAT hard. Just time consuming. And a grind, etc.


4) As I mentioned before Thievery causes items stolen from high level monsters to be labeled as crafted and thus not usable with scrolls. Which leads to another question. Why are crafted items not improvable? I don't quite get the logic there as crafted items even when maxed out as an enchanter in Alchemy and Crafting did not yeild the same bonuses as moderately OK blues.

5) Cursed items - nightmares. I have said this all along that I feel this is a very unfun unbalanced part of the game. It seems to me when someone typically talks about breaking the game at super high levels it involves cursed items and nightmares. I am not suggesting they be removed but I'd really love to see something done with them that does not involve eminent death for carrying even a misfortune 1 item around. That said, it is not impossible to avoid the bastards. Just sometimes a surprise death when they show up out of nowhere and hit for 90% damage before you can teleport out.

6) Perhaps what I am missing the most are the old soul bound items, as I preferred those to most other items. I hope you do bring that class back soon as the game is very funny (to me) when I am wearing the NPC bad guys that I have defeated. Tis not an easy feat to pull off since they only are bindable at some infinitesimal small % of their life total. But that kind of challenge requires some planning and rethinking which embodies strategy to my mind.

7) As I reported in the overpowered section the Bard Passives are way overpowered and unbalanced. They don't scale up nicely and are very hard to put together at a low level. The sound 100% immune monsters are a scary proposition as are the mirror balls which can appear out of nowhere when an h appears from the dark giving you no time to respond before dying.

Don't get me wrong. I love walking around killing everything in sight merely by singing at them. But it seems the wrong way to play a roguelike and an rpg. Like a super power. I think the passive effects should be limited to very high levels or nondamaging effects. (It makes more sense to me such songs would be enthralling for example if they were healing or doing something else nondamaging.)

8) In the same vein Effects and Instant songs need to be fixed so that they actually work. Healing self should not require movement. It should be "Lade da I wish my wounds would heal!" and viola! a healing occurs. not "Hi ho let the healing begin" *runs to avoid the horde while healing slightly (.01%)*

9) Potions: delete them please. This is a failed experiment imho. There is no fluid (pardon the pun) method for learning how they work, nor did Alchemy when it worked, give you any clue. We find tons of potions bits and pieces on the ground but they are mainly useless to us. This is frustrating.

10) Lycilhyds serve a similar purpose and are flavorful to the game. I recommend they replace potions as drops. And have them drop more often. I found my first random one on level 60 something after completing the entire game. This isn't counting the bunch that are always at the bottom of the mines.

Spells
11) Divination really needs work. The Twisted spells are also a failed (if funny) experiment. Also twisting seems more Chaos than Divination based on your story lines. The other divination spells could use some power adjustments. As it is they are way to expensive to be useful for the most part. (Reveal requires something like 1500 mana to reveal even a useful part of the map where as a magical map scroll does the same thing without any effort. Telepathy is a common item ability and is buyable at 5 points. It could be much more detailed with Telepathy 5 being the basic, then telepathy 15 and telepathy 25 as upgradable versions.)

Identify could also be broken up in power a little bit. First we have the basic "what is the function of this item?" then we have "what are ALL the functions of this device?" and then we have "what are all these chatckas in my bag?" and finally "I want to know everything about every item in this room." Each of these could be worth more mana/wisdom to cast.

Speaking of which, it seems like it would be better for players to not know if an item is yellow, purple, blue etc without some basic test. either using a scroll or spell or class id.

12) Conjuration is currently a rather useless school. It would be great if it were fixed so that one could specialize as a mage (or priest) in it and be powerful and versatile without worrying about dying to one's own minions or not being able to keep the minions around long enough to be effective.

IDEA: There could be an ascending number of slots available to a player to control minions with. The slots would be like equipment slots but in the P screen, where you could select the minions you wish to keep and have them travel with you, stowing them (automagically) when in town. (Give us a cage for minion stowing perhaps?) This will mean that anyone could have a permanent pet but conjurers would have the Best pets because of the number and quality of pets they could conjure. (Give more control over specificity of race/subrace to people with higher conjuration skill for example as well as increasing the number of slots allowed based on the skill.)

13) I feel that the fields spells are too rare and too specialized to be very good for Conjurers. It would be nice if they were maybe toned down a little, made easier to obtain and maybe given some cross benefit for knowing the appropriate element associated with them (Light, Cold, Fire, etc.)

14) Heal/Harm both of these spells are still extremely bad. I mean that they scale nicely for Angband perhaps but not for the power levels of other spells in Portralis. As it stands Lifeblast is a better spell by far than Harm even if it isn't always effective. And "R" is probably more effective than the heal spell in most cases. Also lifeblast seems more like a mysticism spell than an alteration spell anyway.

15) Why isn't there a climb/fly spell in the Alteration school? Why not Teleport either? I know there is alter position but that seems to be not very good for its cost. Seems like there could be a whole sub set of spells associated with Alteration just based on movement:

Phase Door (short hops), Increase Jump (actually add to the base distance a person can physically jump),
Run Faster (increase movement per tile per speed increment), Teleport (move far, randomly),
Precision Teleport (choose your location if it is a lit tile you can see),
Passwall (basically creates an open doorway only for you through an otherwise impassable wall (but not permanent walls or mountains.)
Up (Move you up one floor, to the surface if that's the next floor up.)
Down (move you down one floor to the lowest depth possible not including random dungeon boss levels.),
Warp to Town (basically like word of recall but tied to a specific known town selected at spell creation.)
Warp to Known Dungeon (Similar to Warp To Town, requires knowledge of the floor you want to teleport to.),
Far Travel (teleports you to the entrance of a wilderness screen you've already been to from another wilderness or town screen.)
Fly allows movement through trees, mountains. Also allows travel over hazards without damage.

16) Documentation.
One of the things I have been forced to do since I don't play Portralis constantly between the long stretches (sometimes almost a year between them!) of changes is to keep an actual page of notes regarding locations of major quests/npcs and things that must be done to not break the game for any particular instance of the game. It would be extremely useful to be able to look at ~ and view quest information. Not only those currently on (both main and side quests) but those completed.)

I know you dislike spoiling the game for players if they are not interested in having that information but this is really a staple utility for almost all rpgs. You don't have to list every single word an npc says (boy would that be a lot of overhead! Probably bulk up the program by 2-3mb at least!) but having a concise reminder of the location and key items would make the game a little less frustrating for those of us with poor memories and or organizational skills. (Took me a longer time than you'd believe to find some of the basic locations the first time I opened Portralis last year.)

In the same vein there is a Wizard mode ability that should imho be accessible somehow in game. Maybe through an oracle device that is paid for with rare gems or something but it would be good to see everything that is currently effecting a character including:

Mutations (or radioactivity), Abilities (flying, mountain climbing etc), resistances (yes I know we can see this already but including it makes the profile complete), Misfortune (again as per resistances).

If you use the Wizard Mode ability to see yourself you get quite an extensive list. This was one of the cooler aspects of Angband imho and it is a shame to lose it without having to go into Wizard mode. (Not that the score means a thing.)


In Conclusion:
Now that the numbers systems seem more balanced than they were I think it is possible for Portralis to become one of the top roguelikes of all time.

Variaz please take these comments and suggestions as my desire to see this happen and not as mere criticisms. The game has come a very long way from vanilla Angband thanks to your efforts mainly with some small contributions from the rest of us. As always thanks for doing so.

[Gando]

Id also like to respectfully request that KILLER monsters such as Kagham Dragons (??) not appear on the level 2 end dungeons at the start of the game. Seems a tad like over kill.

[Variaz]

Thanks you very much for your feedback!

Now, there's a lot of stuff here, but let me comment on some of these points.

Now I guess I can rest on my laurels

Really? You should perhaps return to (44,44), and look around some of the buildings there. The new quest included in this patch starts there. (and yes, this area is ALSO part of the SV quest line...)

1) the diversity (or lack there of) of the item creation systems. As it stands around midway through the game you have to farm for gold to get the high level scrolls that give your items Leveling and maximize that leveling to your level. The most desirable/obtainable items are not the artifacts and blues you may find laying about though they will certainly do in a pinch. (They are typically a sight better than violet/pink items) The most desirable items are non magical gear of high quality material. Particularly weapons because finding the weapon you have chosen to specialize in the best qualities can be next to impossible.

The formula for making this work is: Farm for gold, get scrolls, stock pile them, find nonmagical items you'd like to enchant. Use magic item scrolls on them. Give them leveling. Max their levels and spend the points. Now you are ready (almost) to face the bosses.

I am not against an item based game. I enjoy item collecting as much as anyone but it feels like items are so balanced for the early game as to be unfun and so weak for the later game to be useless unless you manage to get lucky with a rare find.

I see what you mean here, and I would agree that many times, non-magic stuff is more desirable than magic items. It's a bit due to the way the items generation works, in that it depends on the level of the monster, whether you get a good enchant or not. Problem is, good items are dropped from powerful foes, but powerful gear is needed to beat those foes, hence the need of using the scrolls. On the other hand, I don't want to nerf the scrolls too much to the point of them being ineffective, and a waste of gold.

2) Another thing relating to items that irks the completionist in me is the inability to re-locate artifacts once they have been placed on a level. If you don't find them on that level they are GONE forever until you start a brand new character. That to me sucks.

To be honest, this was not intentional. It's more of a remnant of old Angband that I've never quite changed.

Mithril is even quite rare showing up only very infrequently unmagical. The key being that random Magic Items tend to be bad. (You really don't want to be wearing Mithril Boots with +23 to Axes when you are needing +anything to spell casting for example.) That isn't to say you shouldn't wear those boots when you find them if you can't find anything better. But the fact that you have to is rather pathetic.

In my future plans, I plan on adding Ivhala's own Rare Items shop. It will be different than Jindar's, and will focus on Mithril items. I think an NPC even mentions the store already, but it's not in the game yet.

Magic items tend to be bad simply because they are randomly generated. So of course, any of these items aren't going to suit your character's particular build. It's part of the challenge of getting good gear, though I would agree that it's just too much trouble in general, and that using scrolls is much easier, since you can abort the game, and reroll if you don't like what you get.

A solution for this would be to have purple items not have any particular bonus besides to_h, to_d, to_d and damage/ac, and instead come with some bonus points that you can allocate as you wish. There are pros and cons to this. Pros would be that it would fix the issue of gear being useless, and would make balancing a lot easier. Cons would be that it also make purple items almost all the same, and does remove some of the fun of finding gear.

Where are the Specials?? Clearly not in the first 80 levels of the game. (I made it to around depth 180 (level 90) something this time around and found 0 specials. Also not found: any material above Adamantite as I said before and no music components not sold in the M shops and not even the best ones of those.)

Specials are meant to be VERY rare. They DO exist. They just have a very low drop rate. A few players here found some I believe. It is intentional, they are meant to have you go crazy when you DO find one!

4) As I mentioned before Thievery causes items stolen from high level monsters to be labeled as crafted and thus not usable with scrolls. Which leads to another question. Why are crafted items not improvable? I don't quite get the logic there as crafted items even when maxed out as an enchanter in Alchemy and Crafting did not yeild the same bonuses as moderately OK blues.

Thievery issue = Bug.

Crafted items not being levelable/improvable is something that I need to reconsider. It would have been broken in 0.4, but now in 0.5, not quite. I also think that allowing crafted items to be levelable like other items would be a good idea.

5) Cursed items - nightmares. I have said this all along that I feel this is a very unfun unbalanced part of the game. It seems to me when someone typically talks about breaking the game at super high levels it involves cursed items and nightmares. I am not suggesting they be removed but I'd really love to see something done with them that does not involve eminent death for carrying even a misfortune 1 item around. That said, it is not impossible to avoid the bastards. Just sometimes a surprise death when they show up out of nowhere and hit for 90% damage before you can teleport out.

I'm going to say this: Cursed items are here to stay. I will NOT use the classic cursed item that you can't unequip and that has crappy stats. This is a boring, useless and 100% avoidable outdated mechanic that brings nothing to the game.

Cursed items plays on the player's feelings, that's why I like them. They play on the temptation, they are "taunting" the player, so to speak. You are presented with a very powerful item that outclasses most other items you've found so far. However, you know there's that Misfortune thing on it... and you know something bad is going to happen.... or do you? Maybe it won't happen to you? Maybe you'll be able to avoid the Nightmares? It becomes hard to resist. Will you resist the temptation? Or embrace great power at the peril of your life? That's the whole thing that makes cursed items fun! Not many games implements this concept, and most of the time, cursed items = bad, in most games they appear. Portralis offers you a REAL dilemma!

However, for this concept to work, two things are needed:

- Significantly better items to give players a good reason to use cursed items.
- Significant consequences if you do use the item. In this case, Nightmares.

If the cursed items are too powerful compared to the dangers associated with them, then there's no questions asked, and using cursed items becomes a no-brainer.

However, the opposite is also true: if the dangers greatly outclass the value of the items, then there's no dilemma either: cursed items are bad.

The current incarnation of the concept is actually not too bad I think. Nightmares are supposed to terrify you, and make you run away from them. And like cursed items, they play with the feelings of the players. You know encountering one most likely means a certain death, and when you see one, you will do everything you can to avoid it. Especially after it kills you the first time!

However, Nightmares are also avoidable. They are detected by telepathy, and you can easily teleport away from them. And yes, you have to pay attention to your surroundings, and if you don't, you can pay the price with the your life. Such is the danger of using cursed items.

It seems to me when someone typically talks about breaking the game at super high levels it involves cursed items and nightmares.

I think that this may be the main problem here. Some players found ways to break the game using cursed items, and managed to kill the Nightmares rather easily, which gave you the impression that killing Nightmares was "normal". Which then makes you feel that they should be beatable for a reasonably geared character, only to find out that it's not quite the case. And it was never meant to be the case either. Nightmares are supposed to be only beatable for players who takes time to maximize their character to it's full potential. For everyone else, running away is the best option.

On that note, cursed items are overpowered at high levels. Especially weapons, and their base damage. This is something that will need to be nerfed.



Well, that will be it for now. I will comment on the other points another time, but I think this already gives some stuff to discuss.

[Variaz]

Feb 16, 2012 21:16:56 GMT -5 Gando said:

Id also like to respectfully request that KILLER monsters such as Kagham Dragons (??) not appear on the level 2 end dungeons at the start of the game. Seems a tad like over kill.

Must have been a random dungeon boss. There's no "Kagham Dragons" in the game.

[Gando]

Not sure why + to con doesn't effect monsters that ONLY wear items. Seems rather a hose.

[Gando]

Feb 16, 2012 21:18:34 GMT -5 Variaz said:

Feb 16, 2012 21:16:56 GMT -5 Gando said:

Id also like to respectfully request that KILLER monsters such as Kagham Dragons (??) not appear on the level 2 end dungeons at the start of the game. Seems a tad like over kill.

Must have been a random dungeon boss. There's no "Kagham Dragons" in the game.

Nope....Killed the random dungeon boss which dropped its usual assortment of bad items. This was a boss type (deep pink color) and killed with a breath weapon from far away. (something like 14 tiles)

[Gando]

Really? You should perhaps return to (44,44), and look around some of the buildings there. The new quest included in this patch starts there. (and yes, this area is ALSO part of the SV quest line...)

did Red Rocks much much earlier in the game "by accident" thinking it was part of the SV quest line.

[Gando]

5 deaths as a level 4 'u' ...these humanoid monsters really have it rough....

[Gando]

Make that 6 deaths /5 levels.

[Gando]

The 'u' monster line progression is very odd.

the Witch starts with no essence slots. The upgrade to Imp gives 4 (losing cloak, armor, quiver and light). but the next two upgrades go back to 0 essences. This inconsistency is really a hose because it is impossible to plan for equipment upgrades when also planning for monster race upgrades. Will the next upgrade after these two allow for any essences? What about later? Does the U line have any?

The other problem is being unable to reset ability choices like Inner Elemental Mastery after upgrading from say the Cold Lord to the Lesser Demon. This inflexibility makes planning very difficult without any information on how these races work. :/

[Variaz]

I would agree that Monsters should have a free "reset" when they evolve.