Gameplay -- Underpowered (alpha 2)

[Variaz]

I do not think mages are underpowered. The way damage is calculated has changed, and so there have been changes to the cost of spells. A power 10 spell may now be more expensive than it used to be in 0.4, but power 10 0.5 isn't the same as power 10 0.4.

I may try playing a mage myself, and see how it goes. As for Wisdom casting, remember one thing: the Priest class hasn't been remade yet, so it's possible that it may feel a little underpowered right now, as there isn't much to support it.

[Gando]

You can't build low power spells though. For wisdom casters particularly this is bad.

[Variaz]

From the testing I did with the Mage in 0.5, a low power spell was quite viable. A power 5 spell early on gives you the same average damage as a 2d5 weapon would. It's even better since you have range and the early enemies don't have magic defense. From that point, it went rather smoothly.

Of course, this is for Int-casters. As I've said, Wis-casters are currently missing the Priest class, and so they may very well be underpowered, with no abilities to really support them. Some mechanics may need to be reviewed as well.

[Gando]

The thing is, I find mana fueled casting to be very unreliable for nonmage specialists so wis casting is the alternative but since it doesn't work unless you have massive amounts of wisdom, there is no real recourse. A power 5 spell will NOT fire at all via wisdom.

[Variaz]

Apr 21, 2011 9:36:32 GMT -5 Gando said:

I like in theory the idea that you lose your valuables when you die. (seems fitting and all) but in practice it really drags the game down. I can't tell you how many characters I have ended up deleting when they lost a favored piece that I had not the money to eternalize. The thing is there are certain points in the game where death becomes a mere inconvenience and others where it just wrecks everything. Hard to find a balancing factor that works to keep the game interesting and yet also fun.

I agree also that there are issues with scumming if you take out the death penalty. I don't think there is a solution. The REAL problem imho is the difficulty in raising a Rogue character up. (Though after deleting my last character I restarted and have managed to get to level 7 without dying yet, so some of it is just luck. (Or unlucky breaks, compounded.)

One potential solution I thought about would be to improve Thievery in a way that would allow you to keep stolen loot after death. For example, normally, you lose all items with a value higher than 1000. However, for every points in Thievery, the limit could increase by let's say 500 golds, for stolen items only. This means that with 10 points, you could keep stolen items with a value of 6000 or less, which means pretty much anything early on that isn't a levelable. It would be fair, I think, since Rogues really depends on stolen items, as it's their main source of passive bonus.

[Gando]

Meh, I think then that they would need to be unsellable. There is the matter of risk vs reward.

[Variaz]

Making them unsellable would remove one of the most interesting features of the ability. I mean, what kind of thief wouldn't try to sell the loot for profit? The ability is intended to be a good money maker.

You also have to actually get close to the enemy you want to steal from, so there's still some risk, and would only be abusable in a minority of cases.

Not saying it's a "perfect" solution, but it's either that or having to deal with a more difficult early game, which is more frustrating.

[Gando]

You make good points. I dislike being frustrated...really makes me want to go do something else lol.

[Gando]

Might be interesting to have an item container that is safe from death's claws.

[Gando]

The battle with the imps of greed turned out to be fairly easy so that might be a little underpowered though Namira herself is quite strong enough if she spams you with imps and balls of magic. So offensively she isn't in need of tweaking. I was actually surprised to be able to one round an imp (though usually it took two.) I am wearing half a suit of levelables (+yellow art weapons) and the rest are items stolen and enhanced with tweak points.

[Variaz]

The Imps have been nerfed since 0.4. Since insane broken damage are difficult to get now, having them reduce damage by an amount equal to the total value of your items would be extremely overpowered. So what it does now is take a small percent of the total value of your gear, and add it to their AC/Magic Defense for the purpose of mitigating damage. So they still gain protection based on your gear's value, but not as much as they used to. As you said, Namira herself is strong, so I think this quest is allright.

[challtdow]

Ah, that explains why they were so much harder to beat when I just had cheap normal stuff from the store like I used to do in the old version.

Chall T. Dow

[Gando]

I'm really not feeling the Sneak Attacks ability for Rogues. It just seems underwhelming since it requires that the target be undamaged (so you can only do it once per monster and if you miss you may not even get another chance if you run out of feats and damage them. Seems really bad to put more than a single point into. Having put 6 points into it I haven't noticed any advantage in doing so. Not that the Rogue has much else to invest in beyond 10 points in the first two abilities. Not saying the rest suck but they are likewise underwhelming.

And I am not even sure I get the purpose of #10 since it is unlikely you will want to replace your items stolen from mobs (with Thievery 10) with much from the black market unless it is leveling. And frankly by the time that is really viable you should have already a full suit of blue levelables & or artifact levelables better than what you will find in the blackmarket. The gold you get from monsters dying is cut by the gold you get for stealing their coinage instead of letting it drop. The only way I can see this being good is by sacrifice dying to reincarnate, put all your points in it at a high level (with tons of gold already earned from Thievery) and then after you have bought your level 60+ gear reincarnating again to get back to combat viable mode. Not that, that strategy is totally unappealing but it does seem circuitous and I am not sure that it provides better gear overall in the long run.

Slumber Shot would be cooler if it applied to melee weapons. As it is if you don't bother with ranged weapons that ability is a complete miss.

Art of Poisoning also seems underpowered (though I am not sure it can be supped up properly and still be balanced since poison can be very effective in large doses. In small doses it seems meh.

I can't say I really get the point of Stealthy Attacks though the concept is appealing. It feels redundant. Being able to reroll a botched swing might be nice but it seems like it is just the same as getting better damage per attack that does hit, etc. Also how does it relate to stealth at all?

Rogue Weapon Mastery suffers similiarly and we know what I think of Lock Picking.

Improved Dodge (suggestion: change this to "The Art of Dodging") does not seem to do enough to warrant being a multiple pointer. It says in the text it provides greater accuracy but I don't see how. This is a case where having some real stats & feedback would be very useful to be able to see how this ability really changes combat in your favor.

The reason for this post is I can't really find anything else in rogue to put points into after spending 10 in the first two abilities and 6 in Sneak Attacks (which I regret.) I am considering multiclassing to something else to get some crossover abilities instead.

[Variaz]

My level 30 Rogue is:

Stealthy Fighter - 10
Thievery - 10
Sneak Attack - 10

So yes, I do use Sneak Attack, and I've found it quite useful so far. The purpose of Sneak Attack is to give a strong opening blow that will also make the monster lose it's first turn. After that, you can still use it with Combat Feats to deal more damage. At level 10, it does double damage, multiplicative with passive bonus, so it's good.

Originally, the stunning could be reapplied over and over. But it turned out it was overpowered that way, it made everything not resistant to paralysis easy to kill. A particularly deadly combo was Sneak Attack + Aria's Light sword, the main paralysis-resistant enemies are undead, and undead creatures are hit for double damage when using Light against them. So that's why it was reduced to only if the monster has full hp.

With enough stealth, the ability has a rather good success rate, and basically getting a free turn is useful. And even after that, an attack that does double damage is always useful. That said, it's better used with Combat Feats, so if you don't use them, you aren't using the ability to it's full potential.


Slumber Shot is indeed more of a ranged-centric ability. I don't think it's underpowered. It just targets a type of build that isn't your build. But if you're playing a Rogue ranged character as opposed to a Marsksman, it gives the Rogue an option for ranged specialization. After all, Stealth + Range can be an effective combo, so a Stealthy Fighter + Slumber Shot build can make a nice ranged character that enemies will tend to ignore.

Art of Poisoning also seems underpowered (though I am not sure it can be supped up properly and still be balanced since poison can be very effective in large doses. In small doses it seems meh.

Well, it's a passive bonus to damage that applies to both melee and ranged attacks, and that gets a free "type change" ability. It also ignores some resistance, meaning that this will make Poison work against anything. Also, it's not limited to "Rogue" weapons, you can apply the Poison to anything.

and still be balanced since poison can be very effective in large doses. In small doses it seems meh.

Hmm... you do know that Poison in Portralis is just another elemental type, right? It doesn't do "damage over time". It's just another elemental type, like Fire and Light.

Rogue Weapon Mastery suffers similiarly and we know what I think of Lock Picking.

Rogue Weapon Mastery gives +20% per points to Rogue weapons damage, as much as Sheer Power, but also apply to ranged attacks. It's passive damage bonus, and with 10 points, it's like an extra +200 to_d. Not bad.

I agree about Lock Picking being the weakest Rogue ability. That said, it's useful even with only 1 point. But I really see no reasons to put more than 1 point either.

Improved Dodge (suggestion: change this to "The Art of Dodging") does not seem to do enough to warrant being a multiple pointer. It says in the text it provides greater accuracy but I don't see how. This is a case where having some real stats & feedback would be very useful to be able to see how this ability really changes combat in your favor.

I'm a little confused about the part with the extra accuracy. Where did you see that?

4. Improved Dodge(Passive, level 1)

Effect: Improves your dodge rolls for avoiding melee and ranged attacks.
Bonus to dodge rolls: +20%
Extra points: +20% to dodge rolls.

This passive ability greatly enhance your ability to dodge incoming attacks.
Dexterity, in addition to providing accuracy, also improves your dodging
ability, and as a Rogue, since your Dexterity is most likely going to be
pretty high, this ability will complement it nicely. It will also make up
for having to use light armors if you focus on Stealth.

Maybe you got confused with Dexterity. I was just mentionning that Dexterity affects both accuracy and dodging, not that the ability itself improves accuracy. The ability improves your chances to dodge incoming attacks. Your "dodge rate" is Dexterity + Agility. So if you have 100 Dexterity and 100 agility, you have a 200 dodge rate. 5 points in this ability would boost it to 400. However, I agree that having more visible stats would help seeing the benefits of this ability.

And I am not even sure I get the purpose of #10 since it is unlikely you will want to replace your items stolen from mobs (with Thievery 10) with much from the black market unless it is leveling. And frankly by the time that is really viable you should have already a full suit of blue levelables & or artifact levelables better than what you will find in the blackmarket. The gold you get from monsters dying is cut by the gold you get for stealing their coinage instead of letting it drop. The only way I can see this being good is by sacrifice dying to reincarnate, put all your points in it at a high level (with tons of gold already earned from Thievery) and then after you have bought your level 60+ gear reincarnating again to get back to combat viable mode. Not that, that strategy is totally unappealing but it does seem circuitous and I am not sure that it provides better gear overall in the long run.

You do bring up a good point here, in that Thievery is an overall better ability. It probably needs to be buffed or changed in concept. Any ideas?

I am considering multiclassing to something else to get some crossover abilities instead.

Well, to be honest, it's normal that you feel that way. Portralis, ever since it's beginning as NewAngband, has always been a multiclass game. So multiclassing is strongly recommended, and even mandatory to be able to stand up to stronger foes. After all, I would not be making advanced classes if I didn't want peoples to multiclass. But even multiclassing to other basic classes can be benefical.

It's in fact new to 0.5 that single classing has become more viable, thanks to the changes in passive bonus. In 0.4 for example, you were heavily penalized if you didn't multiclass, as you would end up with less multiplicative bonus. With this problem gone from 0.5, single classing has become more viable. But multiclassing will always be advisable, as no classes are 100% complete by themselves. Portralis is more balanced around combat styles(melee, ranged and magic), rather than individual classes, because multiclassing is expected.



Overall, I am mostly satisfied with the Rogue as it is. I admit Lockpicking and Black Market abilities are underpowered. But the 8 other abilities all have their uses. You have to understand that there isn't only one type of Rogues. Sure, a melee-specialized Rogue has nothing to do with Slumber Shots, but a ranged Rogue will love it. Different abilities exists to allow different play styles, and an ability that may seem useless to one build might be very useful for another one. The Rogue alone has many possibilities. Here's some examples:

Standard Rogue: Stealth and Dexterity focused build, using light weapons and light armor. Will focus on Stealthy Fighter and Thievery, and maybe Sneak Attack 10 and Slumber Shots 10 for a perfect hybrid. By level 40, you'll get a very versatile character. Oh, and put one point in Stealthy Attacks for some extra accuracy.

Ranged Rogue: A ranged specialist. Rogue Weapons Mastery will give +20% damage per points, so with a pair of crossbows or pistols, this will be very strong. Will either pick Stealthy Fither for the Stealth + Range combo, or Rogue Weapons Mastery, and of course Slumber Shots. You can even add Thievery since your Dexterity is likely to be high. If you're not using the Stealth build, you can also wear heavy armor. I wouldn't be surprised if this was very competitive with Marksmen.

Swashbuckler: Rogue Weapons Mastery + Improved Dodge, Dexterity as your main attribute and a high Agility. You can wear heavy armor for AC, you will dodge a lot, you'll be using rapiers or main gauches for blocking. Dual wield them for even more power!

Poison Master: A level 30 build idea: Sneak Attack 10 + Art of Poisoning 20 for melee, or Slumber Shots + Art of Poisoning 20 for ranged. This will ignore 60% poison resistance, provide +200% passive damage bonus, and the Sneak Attack/Slumber Shot will give a solid attack for even more damage(remember, even if you don't have much Stealthy, Sneak Attack will always give you at least +10% damage per points, and it's multiplicative, like all combat feats). In the future, you will also be able to multiclass to Elemental Lord after that...

Specialist Thief: Level 30: Thievery 20, 10 Sneak Attack/Slumber shots. Your high Dexterity will make up for the lack of Stealth when using Thievery, and you can use heavy armors. Very versatile build, as you get a lot of points to customize your equipment.

Accuracy: Stealthy Fighter + Thievery + Stealthy Attacks 10, Dexterity as your main stat. Less power than the "standard" rogue, but you won't miss much. Good against agile enemies, like the Blade Dancer/Ninja Mistresses/Shadow Queens.

These are just some ideas to illustrate that even inside of a single class, there are many possibilities. None of these builds uses all 10 abilities, of course. So saying that Slumber Shots is useless if you play the Swashbuckler build is a moot point, since this isn't the build Slumber Shot was made for in the first place. And all builds will eventually benefit from some multiclassing. That's normal, Portralis and even NewAngband has always been that way.


And yes, I realize that none of my builds ideas includes Lockpicking and Black Market. If you have any suggestions(putting Lockpicking into Thievery was a great idea, but we need to think of a new ability then), let me know! (and not just you, of course, anyone who has ideas are encouraged to post!)

[Gando]

Very nice, lengthy answer. Sorry if I sounded overly negative. I just found this class to be very very hard though I did manage one build with some luck (found Bee Sting before it disappeared forever, managed to find that kobold vault mid game for serious xp boost etc) that has not died yet (because I save scummed vs the boss at the bottom of the random dungeon.)

I guess I did misread the accuracy thing. Confused me but now it is clear.

I will post separately in suggestions my ideas on new rogue abilities.