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Post by random on Mar 19, 2010 13:17:22 GMT -5
Pretty much. He did solicit opinions, but it's ultimately up to him.
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Post by Variaz on Mar 22, 2010 10:10:15 GMT -5
I pretty much agree that right now, melee multiclassing is pretty much the way to go, that or a ranged build, as it's not only powerful, it's *POWERFUL*...while magic is much behind.
It's true that an non-ultra build will struggle against bosses. Bosses, and even elites, are too hard right now. They are supposed to be challenging, but beatable, since they are your main source of magical items. Right now, most high level bosses is "run away", unless you have a melee combat feat or ranged character. Again, this puts melee and ranged above magic.
Magic isn't underpowered however. It's melee and ranged that are overpowered, and the monsters were buffed up to make the game challenging to them, but in the process has made magic much difficult to play. I did have some success involving a multiclassed, multiplier-based High Mage/Elemental Lord with the mage's Absorb Spells ability for mana, but that's too specific to really have a good idea of magic's power. And then, a similar build with melee and ranged would have been uber.
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Post by Gando on Mar 22, 2010 11:53:42 GMT -5
Not so much underpowered as overcosted perhaps. Consider that Melee combatants never run out of mana and Ranged users can just get returning ammo. The mana pool for mages is their ammo. Once that runs dry it becomes a matter of running away and hoping to find a safe place to rest. Even with mana regen this can be a hardship. Also of course magic spells hardly reach the damage levels of melee and that is more inline with melee being overpowered.
I will also add that struggle is a euphemism for "be completely annihilated" in regards to nonultra builds.
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Post by kipar on Mar 22, 2010 13:50:58 GMT -5
I don't think problem is in multiplication of different abilities. 200%*200%*200% vs (200+200+200)% isn't very big difference. Melee and ranged are very powerful because
1. Weapon skills give 150% bonus (vs 10-20% for magic skills)
2. Adamanite\Blue steel equipment, Blue steel swords, adamantite rounds with automatic rifle - magic users just has no analogues.
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Post by Gando on Mar 22, 2010 21:24:37 GMT -5
I don't think problem is in multiplication of different abilities. 200%*200%*200% vs (200+200+200)% isn't very big difference. Melee and ranged are very powerful because 1. Weapon skills give 150% bonus (vs 10-20% for magic skills) 2. Adamanite\Blue steel equipment, Blue steel swords, adamantite rounds with automatic rifle - magic users just has no analogues. I'm not sure I agree with this. I have managed to get Blue Steel on one character and Adamantite on a few others and the damage was only insane despite those materials. Also Multiplicative bonuses increase exponentially not linearly so while (200%)^3 is only 8. (200%)^8 is 256. Thats a far cry from (200% x 8) which is 16. |
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Post by random on Mar 22, 2010 22:03:36 GMT -5
I don't think problem is in multiplication of different abilities. 200%*200%*200% vs (200+200+200)% isn't very big difference. Melee and ranged are very powerful because 1. Weapon skills give 150% bonus (vs 10-20% for magic skills) 2. Adamanite\Blue steel equipment, Blue steel swords, adamantite rounds with automatic rifle - magic users just has no analogues. In theory, magic users could have an analogue in the rods/staffs. They do reach blue steel level, after all. But they'd need a bit of tweaking to be an actual analogue. Perhaps they could improve mana recovery (if not necessarily in a way that infringes on the Mage mana recovery, perhaps in a way similar to how regen improves hp recovery?) Or they could be specialized -- say, a Fire Rod or an Acid Rod or a Conjuration Rod and so forth -- to greatly boost power/Elemental/etc to that specific discipline, allowing them to be give very powerful bonuses but, by limiting their role to a specific discipline, mitigating the dangers of being overpowering. |
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Post by sekira on Mar 24, 2010 1:11:40 GMT -5
I don't think problem is in multiplication of different abilities. 200%*200%*200% vs (200+200+200)% isn't very big difference. try 200%*200%*200%*200%*200%*200%*200%*200% vs (200%+200%+200%+200%+200%+200%+200%+200%)... comes out to 25600% vs 1600%. Yes that means that the multiplicative side is 16 times bigger than the additive side. the multiplicative factor is a part of this.This isn't the issue so much. Spells get 100% per casting stat where weapons get 5% per damage stat so the values mostly balance there. Also, consider the fact that if you have an attack that gets a boost from both weapon skill and spellcraft, your highest damage ratio between spellcraft and weapon skill will have you place only 10 more points in weapon skill than in spellcraft. That huge difference at low values becomes less important at high valuesOk, here I will agree, but only to a point. as random said, you can wear a rod or staff, but remember spells can get a boost from your spell power, which you can control. Now that helps but the damage per hit from weapons vs from spells generally sees weapons passing spells for most builds, because weapons just have way more multipliers than spells do. I happen to have a caster build that makes use of elemental knight ability and elemental weapon ability to boost both int and spell power to crazy levels. He happens to do around 30 million damage per hit with a spell he can cast 5 times a round or 30 million damage per hit with a radius 6+ chain spell (13 possible hits if spacing is optimal), but only when wielding a crazy big weapon of his element (10 AP in elemental weapon lets me add to spell power like a rod does if I'm casting my element and wielding my element). He happens to be level 31. Now, he isn't built around weapon damage, but he still does average of about 20 million per hit with that same huge weapon, and gets 7 attacks per round. Of course he won't hit crap with only 5 dex (he really isn't built for melee, but does have 1 AP in accurate strike to use in a pinch) Now, there are builds that can do 100+ million damage with weapons at the same level, and get 30+ attacks to do so. Thats nuts, with that many attacks you will get past blocking just by brute force and still have enough hits and damage to cut down a multi-lives monster. So, the damage multipliers and the huge number of blows/shots are the real issues that separate spells and weapons. I would say the bigger issue is the number of hits per round rather than the damage per hit. Spells have only 2 ways to get multiple damage per round. multiple effect spells (max of 5 effects per round) and chain spells. Theoretically you can multi effect chain spells to get lots of hits but that is kinda crazy in terms of mana cost. |
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Post by Gando on Mar 24, 2010 11:42:08 GMT -5
That's what I said lol.
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Post by kipar on Mar 25, 2010 14:26:49 GMT -5
But not much people use 8 _different_ abilities to increase damage. And anyway maximum number of AP is 36 (and this is too much for any real build), so you should compare 100%+360%=4.6 with (100%+360%/8)^8=19.54. The difference is big but it isn't insane.
This is true for melee attacks, not for firearms. For firearms it is difficult to get more than 6 shots but shots still do insane damages due to high dice roll of ammo multiplied to 2000-3000% depending on rifle.
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Post by Gando on Mar 25, 2010 15:24:34 GMT -5
maximum aps is NOT 36...Not sure where you picked that number from. Ive had character goes as high as 45. And 200 is the max.
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Post by sekira on Mar 25, 2010 16:35:14 GMT -5
But not much people use 8 _different_ abilities to increase damage. And anyway maximum number of AP is 36 (and this is too much for any real build), so you should compare 100%+360%=4.6 with (100%+360%/8)^8=19.54. The difference is big but it isn't insane. Ok, perhaps not 8 different multipliers but what about the size of each multiplier? It isn't just how many multipliers but how big they get that makes multipliers more effective than additive bonuses. If 8 is too many, then lets look at 3, but lets say they are 500%, 500%, and 1000%. Multiplicitive bonus would be 25000%, while the additive bonus is just 2000%. Thats more than 12 times as big. Ok, but with weapons you can get dozens of attacks, and you don't need that kind of damage per hit in most cases, more attacks does give more damage and also gives better chances to beat blocking counters and overcome multiple lives. But I do agree with you, ranged and melee both are fearsome, it is magic that is lacking when it comes to hits per round. Magic does have area effect though, so perhaps it isn't as lacking in that measure. |
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Post by kipar on Mar 25, 2010 17:11:51 GMT -5
>500%, 500%, and 1000%
Now all abilities give 10% so this will be possible only on level 200.
>maximum aps is NOT 36...
I've posted calculation for level 36 because damages can be way too high already on this level.
I agree that multiplication system for abilities is wrong, and additive system seems better.
I'm just saying that it isn't main problem.
About magic - imho it's (almost) ok now, powerful but not overpowered, so both monsters and melee\ranged should be tweaked to match it.
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Post by Gando on Mar 25, 2010 18:23:55 GMT -5
10% I don't recall this change. I mean going from surplus to famine is not the solution either. Also I think you are wrong about magic. I think it is not powerful. It has SOME potential with certain TYPES of magic (melee/chains) to be abusive but I do not think the normal modes of magic measure up at all. Not even a little. Perhaps this is just a difference of opinion but I have played with the weaker classes and used magic strategies and there IS no comparison. Even if you don't get uber melee weapons and abilities your melee damage will be far superior to what you can field with just spells. (Not counting chains and melee spells of course, which while insanely overcosted can be devastating if built correctly.)
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