Monster Mage

[hairybolox]

I'd thought i'd try a Monster Mage based character that morphs into creatures - eventually reaching the dizzy heights of a Doom Guard [if I last long enough...]
A couple of questions though before I waste points : -
1/ Are regular abilities able to be used whilst morphed ? eg the Kensai's Iajutsu or Dragon's Fury [assuming of course all the requirements are met] ie would a humanoid monster wearing soft armour, no shield etc benifit from these abilities ?
2/ How long does it take to 'Memorise' a creature ?
3/ Does the mage keep a list of all memorised creatures ? If so how many can be kept on this list ?
4/ Are you going to update the Monster Mage any time soon ? I appreciate there are far more important bits that need sorting, but this is the only way of playing something different & using regular abilities - assuming the answer to Q1 is yes... ;-)

Cheers

[Gando]

Monster Mages are way borked from what I recall. Not sure any of the abilities work as advertised.

[Variaz]

Unfortunately, the Monster Mage is a class that I will most likely remove, and should probably have done so already.

The main reason is that this class has no advantages over the Monster race. Monster Magics aren't very different from the Soul Guardian's abilities. The rest are basically morph-related, but really, why not just play a Monster? Boosting the abilities would end up making them very similar to the Monster race, would end up using the same concepts, and would end up pretty much identical.

Basically, it's a class that was a precursor to the current Monster race. It had some nice concepts, but the Monster race now does everything better and has it's own, effective system. The Monster Magics are pretty much the same as the Soul Guardian's Soul Powers, so it's redundance. In the end, the class is obsolete, boosting still wouldn't bring anything new, and therefore, it will be removed.

[hairybolox]

Assuming that abilities actually do work whilst morphed then there is one big reason that I can see straight off for playing them - how else can you play something other than the base 10 races [yes I realise that you have to be one to start with] AND use regular abilities !! For example there is currently no other way of playing Randoms Mud Elemental as an Earth Lord & getting the piercing spells that he needs to defeat the Gatekeeper....??
Or a Naga Princess of Archery that utilises the marksman abilities to the max ? A Shadow Queen or Invisible Stalker with all the "extras" that Shadow Stalkers "one with shadows" provides - would you really want to face one of those ?

I agree that most of the M Mages abilities are a waste of points but the morphing & monster magics can provide a way of playing something different without having to resort to using the monster race which as Gando has stated is unbalanced....

If you are definately going to drop the Monster Mage then please combine the best abilites [if only these 2] with one of the other classes - maybe the best of the Ranger, Soul Guardian & the Monster Mage combined into some form of Monster Shapeshifting Druid.... ? After all Soul Guardian is pretty useless as is the Ranger class, but they each have some usefull abilities that it would be a shame to lose.

[Gando]

Id love to see monstermage reworked into some kind of Druid which is I think the rp basis for it.

[Variaz]

For example there is currently no other way of playing Randoms Mud Elemental as an Earth Lord & getting the piercing spells that he needs to defeat the Gatekeeper....??

Well, the Gatekeeper isn't resistant to Earth and it's weak to Water, so Mud is actually a good type to use, Earth has no disadvantages and Water is optimum. Also, the Inner Elemental Mastery ability of Monsters can be activated to act as a Piercing Spell to bypass natural resistances.

A Shadow Queen or Invisible Stalker with all the "extras" that Shadow Stalkers "one with shadows" provides - would you really want to face one of those ?

Well, of course, if we allow this, we can get some overpowered combo. Another reason why I don't like the idea of having monsters with player abilities. But if we remove the passive monster abilities and counters, then there's not much point in morphing.

With that said, I like the Druid idea.

[random]

What about a straight-up shapechanger in place of the current Monster Mage, but limit it to (natural, not fantastical like dragons, hydrae and the like) animal forms, i.e. lycanthrope types. The first power could be an automatic "shape-shift" and the rest of the powers could alter and strengthen the player...when in animal form, and only when in animal form. Combine that with a total loss of any other class skills from other classes when in animal form and the player will have to make a real decision on whether s/he wants to commit to the class. Since most the animals are fairly weak Monster paths, developing a class like this could make those more attractive to play without risking overpowered combos (seriously, how overpowered is a small wolf/human combo?) Obviously, there are some stronger evolutions, but nothing so overpowered that it makes the long and hard path of getting to them obviously more worth the effort than any other class.

Edit: I meant to add that a player could do a ranger and/or priest class as well to create something approximating the traditional druid class. A certain number of levels in one or the other or both could even be a requirement to start the new shapechanger class.

[sradac]

I really dont see whats so bad about the monster mage, im having fun with one myself. Im not stuck as the same monster, or same monster type the whole game, Im not forced to use only essences as some monsters, I can use my own abilities whenever I want and my own spells whenever I want. Bunch of undead casters tearing you up with dark/cold magic? ok, shapechange into one of them and they can no longer touch you! Hounds got you down? Morph again to match their element! I think they're extremely powerful if someone actually can build one and play one right.
They're just situational characters. Learn as many varied monster magics as you can, keep a decent arsenal of your own spells, and know what form to use, and when to use it. Dont be like some people and be dead set on being one form the whole game, then you SHOULD be playing the monster race.

[Gando]

Sradac, your enthusiasm is welcome. I don't know many people who enjoy Portralis who don't try at least every aspect of it. Most of us are dead set against one single style of play, prefering variety instead. Monster Mage is not a well balanced class but I am glad you have found it enjoyable. Also as Variaz points out it is basically duplicated by various other classes and the monster race. Each class in Port should be somewhat unique and while the idea/flavor behind MM is, the mechanics aren't. You should definitely post your build as soon as you finish the main game quests so we can see how you did.

[sradac]

Im actually going to re-roll it. After playing him for a while i realized that while the MM is in my opinion the most versatile class, you do need to specialize with it. I've broken it down into these "specialties"

1. The Juggurnaut - Morphing focused, heavy melee. Martial arts is your friend.

2. The Mimic - Monster Spell focused, spell focused. Martial arts will be a waste for you, spellcraft and rods will go far with this one.

3. Loremaster - Melee focused, with monster magics to support you. I'd say pick 1 or 2 melee weapons to specialize in. I will be using this one myself actually, seems like it'll be a lot of fun.

4. Leader of the Pack - Morhping focused, monsters that summon. Find a kobold summoner or even a worm mage early for this one. Leadership and charisma for you!

I was trying a "generalist" monster mage and it didnt work good at all, i couldnt memorize very tough monsters because i didnt have enough points in morph, and it was hard to memorize spells because i didnt have enough points in monster magic.

and of course you can still have your own spells to back you up to fill in the gaps of what you dont have yet, alteration and mysticism will probably be the best for those ones. I'm a fan of my "Spiderskin" line of spells i create, Haste + Stoneskin.

[hairybolox]

Sorry guys i'm not convinced that it's duplicated by other classes as much as you're saying. There is no other class that allows you to play as a monster [with it's associated powers/faults] & use regular charaters abilities which makes it a unique class.
e.g. If you play a Monster Mage morphed into a "Katana Dancer" you can combine it with Kensai abilities like Dragon's Fury. Or play a "Skeleton Elite Archer" that makes use of Marksman abilities like Enhance Ranged Weapon.... None of this can be done if you're playing a monster directly & NO other class can become either one of those monsters...
A Soul Guardian's "Soul Powers" most certainly does allow you to use a monsters spells, but you are restricted to a "recharge" period after a power is used which you're not if morphed. Also how hard is it to get a monster down to 5-20% of it's hit points without being killed especially now that a fair proportion of monsters have multiple lives.... Try doing that to a Sky Drake, a Bone Lord or a Pheonix.... A monster Mage just has to "memorize" the monster & can run away the moment it's done

Yes I agree that most of the Monster Mage abilities are rubbish but Morphing is not one of them and is one of the best i've played so far & i'm gutted I haven't dabbled with it before It will certainly need boosting a bit as the game progresses as 1AP per 2 depth levels is pretty poor & would mean having to place 100APs in it to morph into lev200 monsters [when they eventually turn up] maybe 1AP per 5 depth levels would be better - this is the biggest problem at the moment as half of your AP's need to go into Morph to keep up with monsters levels.

I must say I don't like the idea of restricting this class to just "animal" forms as the Fantasy side of Monster races are way more fun - how many people have actually played Hounds or Worms as a serious character ? I'll bet almost everyone has played a Dragon though....

[random]

Feb 22, 2010 5:25:29 GMT -5 hairybolox said:

I must say I don't like the idea of restricting this class to just "animal" forms as the Fantasy side of Monster races are way more fun - how many people have actually played Hounds or Worms as a serious character ? I'll bet almost everyone has played a Dragon though....

Which was actually kinda my point. People don't (I'm just guessing here, of course, because I haven't actually polled or anything, but I imagine I'm right simply because of the practical limitations) play these sorts seriously very often, so creating an alternative where a worm or a bat could be a serious choice strikes me as something worth considering. With the proper mix of abilities available to the class, one could have a unique and distinct character.

This said, I have no particular issue with the Monster Mage as is. I was mostly responding to earlier posts about modifying it.

[Variaz]

Feb 22, 2010 13:40:47 GMT -5 random said:

This said, I have no particular issue with the Monster Mage as is. I was mostly responding to earlier posts about modifying it.

I have one issue with the class, and it is this:

10. Monstrous Life Force(Passive, level 10)

Effect: You gain extra hp while morphed.
Hp bonus: +3%
Extra points: +3% to hp.

This passive ability will give you even more hp while morphed into
a monster. Monsters can get a very high hp, and with this ability,
you can get an even higher one! If you play as a tough monster such
as a dragon or golem, you can get a very, very high hp with enough
points in this ability.

On the other hand, if anyone ever cries about their build being bad, you can cheer them up by telling them: "Don't feel bad. At least you didn't put points into Monstrous Life Force."

[Gando]

Yeah thats pretty bad but its not the only bad thing about the class. But like many of the classes there are a few interesting abilities. I kind of like Hairy's idea of blending various sub par classes together to make a kind of Ranger/Soul Guardian/Monster Mage combo like a Druid or Shaman. OR maybe split the best of the abilities between two classes. Base class = Druid, Advanced class = Spiritualist. Keeping the flavor of the various combined classes as much as possible. The two would work in tandem so abilities from one would work in concert with abilities from the other.

[hairybolox]

That sounds like an excellent idea Gando ! Hopefully they will be wisdom based rather than Intelligence too as a good Druid or Shaman should be.... [If your morphed you can still wisdom cast your spells via the "P" button.]
Personally I think there are at least 2 abilities that aren't usefull in nearly all classes & a whole lot more that could be useful but they need tweaking a bit since the monster races were upgraded with extra lives etc. - hopefully the classes will get a bit of a make over when Variaz has finished the bit of the plot he's working on OR maybe another of the clever souls here could help out.... Gando/Sekira you've both come up with some good ideas & abilities before any ideas... ?