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Post by Variaz on Jan 14, 2010 15:59:34 GMT -5
Gando brought some points concerning the 50+ enemies, and so did hairy. After playing myself, I'm starting to experience some of their concerns, and I'm wondering if maybe I've gone too far with the 50+ difficulty, or even 40+.
Vote, and give a reason for your vote, and suggestions on how to improve the situation, if there's a serious issue going on.
One thing I'd like to mention is that there has been, IMO, a lack of character builds posted. So far, only very powerful builds have been posted, but very few "normal" builds. I'm afraid that this may have pointed me in the wrong direction, and that while the 50+ content is beatable by these builds, the normal builds might be banging their heads against a wall right now.
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grindorin
Champion
Das Haenchen lebt.
Posts: 151
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Post by grindorin on Jan 14, 2010 17:53:17 GMT -5
For my rather limited part, I've never been able to take a character far enough to get to depth 50+, 40+, or even prolly any 30+ mobs. I enjoy the game a lot, but I can't make meself grind out gear levels. The only notable exception being when I use the Wizard Mode to cheat a character to impossible stats/skills/abilities/etc.
I did beat Quazar once quite a while back with an honest character, but that's the best I've ever done.
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Post by Gando on Jan 14, 2010 18:52:16 GMT -5
Well you know my vote. I don't think the level 40 stuff is impossible (though it is difficult) but the leap between that and the level 50+ stuff is insane. Id expect that kind of jump as an increase when you hit triple digits, and even then not sure. The main problem is even with a rebuild of the Rogue/Kensai (using the reincarnation) I found that focusing purely on kensai abilities and skills the 50+ monsters were still extremely hard. You can't toe to toe with something that just eats your life like candy. The amount of life you have also seems to not matter that much. having 2mil+ means sometimes you survive past round 1 but it isn't enough to stand there and trade blows with something that has 100x that + restarts x3-20.
I found the flow is also insane with anything higher than a lantern. I tried a level 10 item (ring of resist poison) and the end boss was well over level 60 and the first time it had the annoying combination of Teleport on Damage and Spell casting that took me down before I could successfully close. I tried using spells against monsters like that but even with nearly 500 wisdom my spells just bounce. This is really the crux of the problem with all the high level content. Everything has multilayered protection from any tactic you may try. I think it is similar to the adversary syndrome some DMs fall into with players. Your players keep finding ways to beat the ordinary monsters you throw at them so you keep upping the stats and abilities of the monsters in the hopes of beating the tar out of the players just this once. Except in this case we aren't beating the monsters you throw at us....we are dying to them and often. My kensai had 11 deaths before I reincarnated him and has 16 now. And that was after getting a complete suit of levelables.
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Post by Variaz on Jan 14, 2010 20:12:25 GMT -5
Good post, Gando.
There is some truth in what you say, in that I have tried to counter many strategies while making some new monsters, and I believe I have succeeded...but it's now affecting the progression.
Even the "DM" himself is now starting to have problems. I must say that casting a radius 5 chain for a total of 10 hits, and only have 1 or 2 that connects, can be quite frustrating.
I want to keep hearing more opinions on the matter.
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Post by junyortrakr on Jan 14, 2010 20:33:32 GMT -5
The mobs do become very nasty. I have been surviving because I rather abusively(OK, maybe hideously abusively) trick out my items, but without that, I don't know how I'd handle it. I run melee types, and I don't have any idea how a mage or range attacker would have a chance.
As for the mobs that blink on damage, I use the 'crumble ceiling' skill ability to completely fill the area so they can't move. It is a pathetic, way-too-difficult way to trap them, but, if I don't die first, it means I can hit 'em 'til they drop.
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Post by adelie on Jan 14, 2010 22:06:13 GMT -5
I'll agree with Grindorin - I usually don't take a character past the point which requires serious grinding to be able to even scratch the monsters. If a random dungeon boss requires hitting 'more' (in the older versions) for an hour to see it drop below slightly wounded, it's just not worth continuing.
Then again, I tend to lean towards quirkier builds (like the old dwarven conjurer) instead of the power builds. As for fixing it, nerfing the monster counter ability would probably go a long way.
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Post by challtdow on Jan 14, 2010 23:35:35 GMT -5
I think the main problem seems to be that after a certain point (around depth 30 or so), it becomes increasingly more difficult to actually damage an enemy. It's not that the various builds can't do enough damage, it's that you can't hit them reliably. It just gets worse from there until by the time you reach the depth 40 or 50 guys you only hit maybe 1 out of every 20 attacks. Defenses only help to a certain point since again their ability to hit you/do damage increases much faster than your ability to avoid/soak. At least this is true with the normal classes, when playing a monster, things are relatively easy as your stats increase at roughly the same rate as the enemies and you have skills and abilities in addition to that. So the situation is almost reversed. I haven't played a magic user in a long time but they seem to have the same problem as melee. In the old version, my ranged characters actually were able to do slightly better since their to_hit is much higher than a melee character due to the focus on DEX. Also, as I mentioned in the rogue thread, I put some points into stealth to help avoid attacks from anything that isn't right next to me, and to help with running away when neccesary.
Chall T. Dow
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Post by hairybolox on Jan 15, 2010 7:16:46 GMT -5
Hi All, I've said my piece too....
From what has been said it does seem the counters are to blame, but I also suggest the number of lives should be reduced too at least til we get to Level 100 monsters.
As i've said on another post maybe some or all of the counters can be related to stealth & whether the monster detects you or not - after all you can't stop something hitting you if you don't see it coming ;D this would mean they rely on there inate resistances to reduce damages & would make stealth useful/desirable for all chars especially ones like Rogues who use loads of stealth....
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Post by Variaz on Jan 15, 2010 9:14:57 GMT -5
Stealthy Fighter ability was supposed to allow Stealth to help against counters, though it only does that starting at 11 points and higher. It would have to start from 1 point and higher.
Another possibility I thought about was to allow Defense to help against melee and ranged counters, and Magic Defense against magic counters. Reason is that by learning to defend yourself better, you also learn to pierce through enemy defenses more easily, and you understand their abilities better.
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Post by hairybolox on Jan 15, 2010 11:41:57 GMT -5
In the Rogue builds i've tried I never bothered using Stealthy Fighter as I was never sure on exactly how the anti counters side of it worked out & to me it seemed like a waste of points - I would rather put my points in thievery or lockpicking - my damage came from daggers as i'd eventually like to get the lev 50 bonus ;-) I LIKE your idea of using defense & magic defense especially with a Defenders Defense Evasion
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Post by kipar on Jan 15, 2010 13:30:52 GMT -5
I haven't seen 50+ monsters, but 40+ aren't challenging for enchanter\gunner at all. After checking levels dungeon 45-50, haven't found anybody dangerous - 1 true shot deals 8-16mill. of damage so 1 shot=1life. The best tactic i've found against counters - ignore them. Missile-type True Shot is useful against everybody(no counters, no returners, no immunities). With magic defense 50+ monster's counteratacks aren't too efective (except divination\life blasts), so I don't think 40+ monsters are overpowered. About 50+... haven't seen them. Maybe I should stop exploring dungeons and start doing story quests
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Post by Variaz on Jan 15, 2010 15:16:43 GMT -5
I haven't seen 50+ monsters, but 40+ aren't challenging for enchanter\gunner at all. After checking levels dungeon 45-50, haven't found anybody dangerous - 1 true shot deals 8-16mill. of damage so 1 shot=1life. The best tactic i've found against counters - ignore them. Missile-type True Shot is useful against everybody(no counters, no returners, no immunities). With magic defense 50+ monster's counteratacks aren't too efective (except divination\life blasts), so I don't think 40+ monsters are overpowered. About 50+... haven't seen them. Maybe I should stop exploring dungeons and start doing story quests This is exactly the kind of broken combos that pointed me in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, only this type of builds are posted here. The 50+ content is made with that in mind, and therefore too hard for most normal builds. There were two builds that made all encounters easy: combat feat + accurate strike, and a true-shot build. If you've noticed, Accurate Strike no longer provides 100% counter bypass if used in combat feats, and I might make True Shot have a roll for a guaranteed hit as well, rather than 100% guaranteed counter bypass. Probably will allow an extra shot every 5 points rather every 10 to make up for it, but "100% never miss" abilities is something I wish to remove. Here's a challenge for you: reincarnate, put your points into another shot other than True Shot. You'll see what we're all talking about.
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Post by Gando on Jan 15, 2010 21:40:03 GMT -5
Heh leave it to Kipar to completely not get the point of this thread. We aren't really talking about the old content. We are talking about the new 50+ monsters. Also while using a gun may be borked and need some nerfing it is THE most pain in the rear way to play the game. At least I think so.
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Post by random on Jan 18, 2010 15:47:29 GMT -5
My main impression (at least with older versions, since I haven't had time to develop more than one character, to level 31, in the current version) was that the game itself was less complete in the character building aspect than the dungeons/enemies aspect. That is, there's no practical way to build up a character capable of handling the hardest parts of the game itself. I tested with wizard mode a few times and even a level 200 with uber-high skills and stats and a full range of levelables and some tweaked equipment could die fairly quickly at dungeon levels far below what she should theoretically be able to handle (say, level 90.) I'm not sure what the exact fix would be, but it does suggest that the same attention could be paid to the exponential increase of ability at higher character levels as to that of monsters and dungeons in order to resolve the balance of power issues. Perhaps giving out more experience for really powerful monsters is one possible, if incomplete, solution. There's really no joy in spending 20 minutes killing a strong boss only to get the same experience you'd get wiping the floor with a horde of monsters in 10 seconds using a couple of spells...assuming you got any experience at all from them. I understand that scumming is to be avoided, but nobody is going around scumming Boss-level Bone Lord Snipers for experience. Players pretty much earn whatever substantial amount of experience one could get from killing such an enemy. This, at least, would allow quicker leveling, though it doesn't address other aspects of disparity between monsters and players.
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Post by grrraaaa on Jan 19, 2010 6:04:42 GMT -5
I'm not going to vote yet, mainly because I just came back to this game and I'm working on my first serious character. No idea if he's a super build or an average one, but I haven't seen his like posted in the forums yet. I'll post my results and his details as things progress!
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