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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 21:06:24 GMT -5
Post by Variaz on Jan 5, 2010 21:06:24 GMT -5
You think someone can manage to get to 25 as only a rogue? I declare that impossible. I will continue mine, then post him.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 21:18:44 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 21:18:44 GMT -5
Well you ARE the creator of the game, if anyone can you can...but I am betting against it being something the average player can do. I certainly KNOW I can't. 15 is the highest I got without dying.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 23:11:45 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 23:11:45 GMT -5
Tried something different. Pally to level 10 for perm Sword and then switched to rogue...Really not a good plan....9 deaths so far.
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 0:23:16 GMT -5
Post by Variaz on Jan 6, 2010 0:23:16 GMT -5
I'm starting to lean on your side on this one.
Now level 17, my Demon Rogue isn't very impressive so far. In fact, weren't it for the fact that he's immune to Darkness, a pack of Dark Imps would have killed him by now. Some problems I'm noticing:
- Stealth itself is nice. But Stealthy Fighter, in the end, does not provide any real benefits for 10 points. It allows you to get Stealth as a fighting skill, but does not provide any forms of damages increases. Whereas a Fighter with Sheer Power, or a Warrior with Battle Skill, will be much stronger and much more effective. (and you can take a specialized weapon skill for even more damages)
- Thievery probably needs a boost. It's fun. But the items needs some boost. With only 4 points so far, it produces some nice bonus. But not where it needs it the most: base damages, and base AC for armors.
- Deadly Stalker is hampered by the fact that "Hide" from Stealth has a duration that is too short. And then it's random and unreliable.
Seems like the class may be underpowered still. Not as much as it used to be, but still not on par with other starter classes.
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 10:19:33 GMT -5
Post by challtdow on Jan 6, 2010 10:19:33 GMT -5
While I'll agree that the class is less powerful than some of the melee focused ones, it's still much better than the previous rogue. I'm building a dagger user, the new dagger abilities are awesome btw, and at level 12 I'm not having that many problems. I only have ~40 stealth which is still enough that normal enemies ignore me. I then took 25 points in dagger to get the free dual-wielding, and I've started putting some into agility for more speed and ac. With abilities so far I've gone 1 lockpicking 1 rogue weapons mastery 1 divine blood 1 forestry 6 stealth fighter
I have 2 left over that I will probably put into stealth fighter when I get to level 3 in priest and can switch back out. I'm still only level 4 in rogue so I haven't had a chance to try the higher abilities. With Deadly Stalker though, EVERY hide ability that I have attempted to use in the previous versions has too short a duration for the cost. With the addition of the main gauche, the swashbuckler ability might really help the survivability early one, and you can still use rapiers if you want. I still prefer the daggers for the new free dual-wield. Then as a kobold, I will definately be putting some points into Art of Poisoning, for the piercing if nothing else. I'll probably try a few points into Finishing Blow but I probably won't be taking Stealth and Cunning or the Black Market game.
Chall T. Dow
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 15:40:44 GMT -5
Post by random on Jan 6, 2010 15:40:44 GMT -5
My problem with stealth abilities, especially invisibility powers, is the short duration and limited effectiveness. As the game is set up now, it's hard to pour a lot of points into Rogue powers without sacrificing powers from other classes that could compensate for the weaknesses of rogues. All classes need to have their drawbacks, I understand and agree with that, but the Rogue's are, next to the bard's imho, the hardest to compensate for. I'd love to see something done to allow a high-level rogue (and especially a Shadow Stalker) become more self-sufficient, i.e. they have innate advantages that don't require stopping every three rounds to renew their invisibility or change their status or alter their location. Perhaps even allowing abilities to be tied to permanent invisibility from items?
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 15:59:47 GMT -5
Post by random on Jan 6, 2010 15:59:47 GMT -5
Random your perspective is valuable even if I am a vet. I am not a good player lol. Im a decent tester and good at finding bugs and sharing ideas but I game horrribly. Always dying to things like phys reflection etc. With THIS archetype I am finding the lack of powerful attacks makes it a dangerous character to melee with as it also lacks AC and HP and in addition stealth seems relatively meaningless vs anything that could kill me anyway. I don't think it is a tactical issue. I think it is a Rogues are still weak issue. I gotcha. It is a difficult game to begin with. I've played several others -- I used to relish ToME -- and this is probably the hardest one I've done. I tend to think in terms of being a player rather than a tester, so I don't necessarily pick up on the important points of how each aspect (such as an individual class) stands up by itself in this context. Probably because this is the first one I've played that has such an extensive system of personalizing a character with powers from different classes.
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 16:51:27 GMT -5
Post by kipar on Jan 6, 2010 16:51:27 GMT -5
It's just useless. But Shadow Cloak has much higher duration. And "One With Shadows" ability gives enormous bonus to dexterity and nice bonus to speed while you are cloaked. My kobold level 20 rogue deal 8k-42k damage with fine revolver normally and 22k-113k damage under Shadow Cloak. It's enough for most of monsters on his level - and with art of poisoning i (almost) don't care about phys. immune monsters. Don't know about thievery - i prefer killing those bosses.
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 16:56:15 GMT -5
Post by Variaz on Jan 6, 2010 16:56:15 GMT -5
It is then clear that "Hide" needs to have it's duration increased. It currently has a duration of.....3. So, yeah... Also, some of the changes I'm thinking about: Stealthy Fighter: In addition to allowing the usage of Stealth as a fighting skill, it will boost your damages by (1/10 of your base Stealth)% per points, up to a maximum of 10% to damages per points. Applies to both melee and ranged. (meaning that with 100 base Stealth, it gives +10% to damages per points. With 50, that would be 5% per points) That would provide some needed boost to damages. It still focus on Stealth, and it doesn't outdamage Sheer Power or Weapon Mastery(and it shouldn't), but it's still an improvement, and applies to both melee and ranged. Thievery: A fun ability, but doesn't do much besides getting more items. A good thing in itself, but the items will need to get a boost on base damages and base AC, for them to make up for the fact that Thievery, itself, provides no offensive or defensive bonus. Deadly Stalker: I believe a successful Stealth roll is all we should need to activate this ability. The requirement to be in "Hide" mode could be dropped entirely. And I agree that Shadow Stalker probably needs some improvements as well.
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 17:44:48 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 6, 2010 17:44:48 GMT -5
I hate to say this but I think having to use guns to make a class good (other than marksman/gunner) seems horrible. I won't do it.
The problem with Stealth is it just plain doesn't work on monsters over a certainly and definitely not on bosses/elites. Haven't tried on Uniques/nightmares but I am pretty sure that is even more true. Point for point it doesn't have the weight of any of the fighting skills or defensive skills. The same points spread between defense and agility give a much greater benefit.
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 18:23:38 GMT -5
Post by kipar on Jan 6, 2010 18:23:38 GMT -5
IMHO stealth works. I've put all points to stealth - and on level 20 can clean packs of hounds, imps, even defeat elite elementals in level 30 dungeon. They can kill me with two or three shots. they WILL kill any other character with such little hp and defense (yes, i can raise agility and defense and magic defense instead of stealth, but then i won't have points left for atack skills at all), but they just don't shoot and stupidly wanders around me. Just don't go melee with them. Perhaps you can replace guns with crossbows - in sekira's build on this forum they are even deadlier than guns. Even my Bee Sting (with strength 6 and dexterity 120+)deals about 60k of damage.
First seen nighmare scout instakilled me. Stealth is nice, but i still need full set of levelables against nightmares.
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 19:25:40 GMT -5
Post by Variaz on Jan 6, 2010 19:25:40 GMT -5
Having a bit of stealth can be useful for avoiding normal monsters.
Elites and bosses, in addition to having better stats, gets their rolls doubled against your stealth, so it's easier for them to detect you.
As for uniques and nightmares, they get 5 times the roll. Nightmares also have stats even higher than bosses, so it will not work very often.
The ranged bonus is more of a complementary skill than the focus of the class. They have no ranged active abilities, so a pure Rogue is not a very good ranged character.
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Rogues
Jan 6, 2010 23:06:49 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 6, 2010 23:06:49 GMT -5
And this is why stealth is a terrible strategy for fighting. Stealthy Fighting is hampered by being no where near as good as the warrior abilities (as it should not be) and yet not having the defensive capabilities of say Defender or Paladin abilities. An unhappy medium is the difficulty. A great idea on paper but in fact it executes poorly at least for us mortal players.
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Rogues
Jan 8, 2010 1:27:57 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 8, 2010 1:27:57 GMT -5
Ive just given up. After 18 deaths and another Reincarnation on my latest attempt at a rogue I give up. It is just not viable. Also it seems the game has become 20x more difficult since the last time I played it. Every step now there is SOMETHING that kills you no matter your stats. If its not physical returners returning nonphysical damage, its a monster that is 20 levels higher than the level you are on, or simply a horde of immune monsters that nip at you until you succumb. Poison is thankfully not so prevalent as it was a few builds ago but confusion is an extremely common event. Blindness as well. In all the builds where I got into the teens including going to bottom level of the flow start dungeon the only levelable I found was a rod that was incredibly unuseful. Which rods generally are to me since I can't figure out how a rod wielder works. The class imho is a failure or I am ...you choose...I don't care. I did manage to find some ancient chests...containing nothing useful of course. Nice yellow though. I've noticed that if you don't start with 'Bee Sting' in the first dungeon it is nearly impossible to get it. The ~1 menu shows often that I have 'seen' it but passed it up, which means it never will show up again. Since there are no OTHER good low level artifacts that has become a factor imho in my tests with the rogue.
This last one I did something odd...I went 10 levels of paladin to get the sword to level 10...made some swords then switched classes to rogue (thus ruining my stats) and immediately died 4-5 times before I managed to stabilize. Then I reincarnated and respent the ability/stat points more sensibly but this did not really help. So after managing between many deaths to get to level 20 I died yet again to something I couldn't stop and decided it was time to give it a rest. Very very depressing. (I'd curse but that self expression is frowned upon here so if you know any feel free to hear them in your head.)
I have a request with the Limbo system... Please don't deposit the character willynilly. One time I reincarnated and appeared in front of the devlin HQ (because I died inside) and the two develin guards minced me...happened twice before I surrendered to final death since there was no out. I recommend you use the Inns in each town where it is extremely unlikely you will be attacked upon reentry. Either that or give some kind of invulnerability for a few turns so the person can flee or at least spend up their points.
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Rogues
Jan 8, 2010 1:38:30 GMT -5
Post by Variaz on Jan 8, 2010 1:38:30 GMT -5
This game hasn't been tuned up in difficulty(at least not early on), and I don't think it's you. It's the class I think. The Rogue is definitely still underpowered, and it will need adjustments to become more viable. I'm rather tired of my demon rogue myself, and want(and will) play something more efficient, and try beating the new boss.
This particular case with the Limbo system is not due to the system itself, but due to the way death is coded. It would have happened with the old system. However, it wouldn't be difficult to create some sort of "sanctuary" or even just an inn, like you suggest, to revive.
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