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Rogues
Jan 4, 2010 16:29:06 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 4, 2010 16:29:06 GMT -5
Maybe its just because I suck at this game but the new rogue seems much weaker than the old one. Not that I played the old one much but it seems like the "cool" abilities don't help survival at all. At 5 points each Thievery and Lockpicking contribute 0 to his survival. Stealthy fighting also seems rather lame. With over 100 stealth and 3 points it barely gives any damage at all. Rogue Weapon mastery (using the usual only weapon artifact available which happens to be roguish: 'bee sting') at 3 also is relatively negligible. Adding 3 levels of shadow stalker was a wasted effort and when I reincarnated I took away the points spent there and put them back into Roguish skills. I really am not sure how you consider the changes viable. Perhaps a spoiler is in order. Out of the many chests Ive found most contained junk I wouldn't pick up if I knew they were in them. (A few I had to take back to town to unlock since they were too hard at the current lockpicking level I had.
One point seems OK..but spending 5 seems a complete waste. Same for thievery. The items you get from thievery are only moderately better than the junk you can find on the floor. And usually aren't any better than NOT picking the pockets of the bosses and just relying on the RNG to make them. It could be I haven't give it enough of a chance but the problem with leveling up a weak character is diminishing returns. Gaining experience to level up gets harder and harder when you can't kill anything (40k+ hp level bosses? jeesh) and when 2-3 solid hits kills you. I am sure there is SOME build that works but I haven't found it.
In some positive news: I do like how the reincarnation/ressurection works. Cool spirit guy in the top part and the choices make sense. I just wish it didn't happen quite so often. Stealth at 100 isn't enough to keep anything that can kill a melee guy from killing you and there is no alternative that I can see. Dying every 2 seconds is just a waste of effort/time.
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kipar
Champion
Posts: 201
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Rogues
Jan 4, 2010 16:49:50 GMT -5
Post by kipar on Jan 4, 2010 16:49:50 GMT -5
4 points in Lockpicking right now gave my 12-level rogue a levelable item (I can't open this chest with 1 point so saved it in home). Stealth 100 (combined with shadow stalker Shadow Cloak ability) seems enough for dungeons up to 16 - it doesn't prevent monsters from hitting you when you are close though, so you need a lot of HP\AC as everybody else. But other monsters always dance around you completely confused so if you can kill one of them you can kill them one by one.
Well, damage of bee sting seem not very high against 10k+ hp monsters... I'll try pistols.
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Rogues
Jan 4, 2010 18:25:28 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 4, 2010 18:25:28 GMT -5
Nice find there. Haven't seen anything valuable from a chest yet. Had to restart my rogue from the ground up because he got fubared after several reincarnations.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 0:57:57 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 0:57:57 GMT -5
I tried again with a new Rogue and experienced the same exact thing. Survived to level 13 then just randomly died to a golem. Same problem. The character can't get enough hp/ac/damage to survive at that level AND level up in a NONboring manner. Yes it is possible to only visit very bad experience dungeons and level "safely" but that way takes many hours per level not to mention the horrible tedium of wasting time. Compared to every other class I have to say Rogue is extremely underpowered still. Maybe even more so since the "upgrade." Ah well...I did see one of the rings I designed in a blackmarket so all is not lost.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 2:29:39 GMT -5
Post by Variaz on Jan 5, 2010 2:29:39 GMT -5
Reason you think the Rogue is worse is because, as you said, you never really played the original one much. In fact, I doubt anybody has.
Stealth is good to avoid the enemies, but it doesn't guarantee that you won't get attacked. It's an additional protection, but defensive skills should by no means be neglected.
I've rolled a new non-kobold rogue. Again, 10 points in Stealthy Fighter for starting, and this time using Thievery. So I will try it out and see if it's worthwhile.
And yes, defensively, the Rogue is a little weaker, since you have to raise both Strength and Dexterity, so that leaves less points for constitution. Damages are also not as high as some other classes, but that's because it's easier to avoid the fights. Can't beat a random boss? Use combat feat + Thievery to steal it's drops, jump away and then run. Flow runs will also be made easier.
One thing I'd like to point out is that if you do not plan on using "Rogue Weapons Mastery", then do not use "Rogue" weapons. Stealthy Fighter allows you to use Stealth as a damages skill. It can be used with ANY weapons, so there's no reasons not to use a katana or even a halberd.
I'll say that Thievery, so far, has been a pretty fun ability. If it turns out to be underpowered, I will tune it up. Another possible improvement could be that you gain a little experience for successfully stealing an item. The same thing could be done for Lockpicking.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 14:39:51 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 14:39:51 GMT -5
Happened again. Leveled a new rogue from scratch and ignored thievery and lockpicking in favor of the combat skills and by the time he got to 13 he was killed. Final death again because I can't stand starting over with items from scratch.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 14:40:45 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 14:40:45 GMT -5
I guess I just don't know how to play it and no one seems to have any pertinent suggestions for me.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 15:11:01 GMT -5
Post by random on Jan 5, 2010 15:11:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure how pertinent the suggestion is, but I generally build a monk or a warrior first, get some of their skills and training bonuses, then switch over to weaker combat characters like rogues and mages. I haven't had the time to do it for this newest version, but I've also had great success getting Light of Life from a priest and use that to get lots of experience quickly when building up other classes. A rogue with some extra points in combat skills and Light of Life as a fallback should be a lot easier than a pure rogue. (In a side note, I would like to see Shadow Stalker changed next, to build on the concept of the ultimate assassin/rogue-type player.)
But all of this was, I assume, standard strategy even in older variants of Portralis.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 17:40:22 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 17:40:22 GMT -5
Standard strategy in portralis? don't make me laugh Everyone approaches the game differently. We aren't all power gamers.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 17:44:55 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 17:44:55 GMT -5
I was just thinking that the Lockpicking ability would be a lot better if you didn't eternal fail against chests and instead gained a new chance at them when the ability improves. This would actually make the ability somewhat more meaningful than as a gate way to "better" chests. So far I haven't found anything in a chest though that makes them worth while. The one cursed chest I opened had extremely low grade cursed items that were actually worse than what I was wearing even without the misfortune. I think I made a few thousand gold off them at the shop...that was a level 13 chest. I am not saying the ability sucks or that chests do...but at low levels they all seem irrelevant. And the scroll Find Chests seems equally bad (it rarely ever shows anything on the screen.)
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 17:48:59 GMT -5
Post by random on Jan 5, 2010 17:48:59 GMT -5
Standard strategy in portralis? don't make me laugh Everyone approaches the game differently. We aren't all power gamers. I'm not a "power gamer." I just came to my own conclusions about what works best if I wanted to get the full range out of the game. I only guessed it was standard strategy because, well, it seemed fairly self-evident and didn't want you to think I was trying to lecture you on a game you've obviously played a lot longer than I have.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 17:54:46 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 17:54:46 GMT -5
Never fails...I hit 12-13 and something over powered kills me and I can't escape. Ridiculous.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 18:02:22 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 18:02:22 GMT -5
Random your perspective is valuable even if I am a vet. I am not a good player lol. Im a decent tester and good at finding bugs and sharing ideas but I game horrribly. Always dying to things like phys reflection etc. With THIS archetype I am finding the lack of powerful attacks makes it a dangerous character to melee with as it also lacks AC and HP and in addition stealth seems relatively meaningless vs anything that could kill me anyway. I don't think it is a tactical issue. I think it is a Rogues are still weak issue.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 19:30:37 GMT -5
Post by Variaz on Jan 5, 2010 19:30:37 GMT -5
It's a new class, so it might very well have issues.
But I think it's a bit too early to judge. Let's wait until someone has a level 25 Rogue, and see how it fares against Quazar, and then in the 40+ levels.
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Rogues
Jan 5, 2010 19:40:35 GMT -5
Post by Gando on Jan 5, 2010 19:40:35 GMT -5
You think someone can manage to get to 25 as only a rogue? I declare that impossible.
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