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Post by junyortrakr on Nov 8, 2008 15:40:17 GMT -5
Items can go to level 200?!? I thought they maxed out at level 100, so the about 25000 class kills was for lvl 100. If they can go to lvl 200, that'd be about 100,000 class kills. Still, it would be very powerful if one ever did reach such an nearly unattainable level.
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Post by Variaz on Nov 8, 2008 16:12:17 GMT -5
Items can level up to the same level as you. So if you're level 30, you can level up your items to 30. If you're 200, you can level them to 200.
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Post by junyortrakr on Nov 13, 2008 8:38:39 GMT -5
I must really be behind the times since I didn't know I could, at least in theory, have a character that reached lvl 200. I also didn't realize that the item level cap was equal to my level cap; both are good to know.
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Post by junyortrakr on Feb 22, 2009 22:55:35 GMT -5
I had an idea for a significant modification to crafting, and I though I'd see what others thought about it.
One thing I have noticed in the balance between leveling and crafted items is the starting bonus leveling items have from being magic items first. At low levels, this isn't very important as the bonuses are small. As you start to get deeper in the dungeons, though, this bonus becomes much larger. Even on level 40, the random items you find often have big bonuses even without misfortune. This can give these items a large bonus when you start leveling them, especially in the base stats.
To compensate for this increasingly large effect, I think crafted items could be modified to allow a scroll of magic item to be read on them. All the basic crafting would remain the same, but you would get some extra power to your items as you increase in level. As currently, these items would never be levelable or sellable. If it seems to easy to abuse, perhaps these items could be made undecomposable unless made mundane.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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Post by Gando on Feb 23, 2009 7:33:59 GMT -5
I had an idea for a significant modification to crafting, and I though I'd see what others thought about it. One thing I have noticed in the balance between leveling and crafted items is the starting bonus leveling items have from being magic items first. At low levels, this isn't very important as the bonuses are small. As you start to get deeper in the dungeons, though, this bonus becomes much larger. Even on level 40, the random items you find often have big bonuses even without misfortune. This can give these items a large bonus when you start leveling them, especially in the base stats. To compensate for this increasingly large effect, I think crafted items could be modified to allow a scroll of magic item to be read on them. All the basic crafting would remain the same, but you would get some extra power to your items as you increase in level. As currently, these items would never be levelable or sellable. If it seems to easy to abuse, perhaps these items could be made undecomposable unless made mundane. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Yeah I don't know why craftables were marked as unsellable/unlevelable to begin with except that I guess Variaz thought they would be overpowered. But that was a different power paradigm than the current builds. Last year when crafting was introduced as it stands, everything was still somewhat NewAngbandish. Alot of changes have taken place since then and a lot more of the game has been developed. I don't have any objections to this idea.
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Post by Variaz on Feb 23, 2009 9:42:59 GMT -5
Phew, I was afraid the board was dead! (I know, it's my fault for taking so long to release 008...) I agree that much happened since last year's Crafting revamp. Last year, I was worried Crafting could become overpowered, but now, it seems that magic items are overall outclassing crafted items, and the power boost to items doesn't cut the challenge out of the monsters. The scroll of magic item idea seems like a nice one. It wouldn't overpower the items, and would give them a nice bonus to keep up with the blues.
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Post by Gando on Feb 23, 2009 19:13:38 GMT -5
Sorry I haven't been more active because there has been nothing to write about. I have not been playing Portralis lately because Ive been involved in helping develop a few other projects. But I have not forgotten the game and I have come here every day even though I have not logged on.
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Post by Variaz on Mar 30, 2009 16:10:32 GMT -5
Well, I thought about it, and just realised that Crafting really isn't what it used to be. Or actually, it is, Crafting hasn't been nerfed. It's everything else that has improved. Now, with 100 natural points in Crafting, you get 20 points per items, but 20 points is actually only a level 10 blue. And that blue item will have some natural bonus already, not to mention that you will also have spent your natural skill points in other skills and gained feats, and this will result in you being much stronger overall. Let's not even talk about reds and greens, which will probably start to appear now that the game is reaching the 40+ depths. And I WILL end up making really strong artifacts! A Dwarf Enchanter, with 500 in Crafting, will have 937 Crafting total, meaning 187 points per items. That's like a level 93 blue, but without the additional skill bonus, and the damages of a weapon will still be smaller in the end. And that's for the Dwarf. Human will get 781, 156 points, level 78 items. The rest gets 625 Crafting, 125 points, which is like a level 62 item. That's not bad, but that's not good either, because some of these items will be used to simply compensate for the natural points you would have spent in the skills normally. And you won't get the feats. And forget about using Crafting as a secondary skill. junyortrakr's suggestion might not be enough. We may need to rethink how the points are granted to crafted items. Or, if we keep it that way, then give Enchanter new abilities to really make up for it. (Honnestly, who uses Craft Fighting and Intelligent Fighting?) We have some options: - Allow crafted items to become levelable. - Give more skill points, allow magic item scroll for a one-use on them(and red licialhyds too). - Make Enchanter a more powerful class.
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Post by junyortrakr on Mar 30, 2009 19:16:17 GMT -5
Well, enchanter is a very useful class already, although the abilities you mentioned are pretty useless. Balancing this could be rather tricky, too. Just making crafted items levelable without being magiced might be possible. Possibly making them magicable with more points but no leveling might work too. I suspect there are other good options, too.
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Post by junyortrakr on Mar 31, 2009 19:09:49 GMT -5
I had more time to think about it last night, so I have more specific ideas for people to comment on.
Crafting.
The concept I am mentioning here is to allow a crafter to make items and to replace magic item/reds/binding. As such, it wouldn't be a replacement for leveling, but for the mentioned item improvements.
* Remove the 3X multiplier for decomposing items and just make them able to decompose anything at skill level or less.(Mining makes this much less relevant, anyway.)
* Cap the improvements to items at skill level less than or equal to character level. --This would probably mean that tweak points would have to be adjusted. I'm thinking 1/4 skill points. --The bonus % for improvements/skill pt. might need to be increased as well. --Absolutely no magic item scrolls, reds, binding, etc. could be used. The flow could be used like usual. Right now, a soul can be bound on a crafted but unenchanted item, and I haven't confirmed every other possibility. --Example lvl 25 character with 40 crafting skill. This guy would be able to make and decompose mithril items, but would only get an improvement and skill bonus to level 25. This would give 6 tweak points.
* These items would then be levelable.
I think this would work without being abusive, but I don't know if anyone would like the layout. What thoughts do you guys have?
Alchemy
It seems strong the way it is to me, but I was wondering if an increasing skill could give a bonus to radius on thrown potions. I was thinking 1/30 skill points would be a starting point.
Enchanting
These more of a questions than anything.
I was wondering if one should be able to put a brand on a shield and then use it for brandcasting. (One of the artifact shields has a brand.)
Right now, you can use a brand on either primary weapon to brandcast. If you don't have a weapon, then you can use the brand on your gloves. I was wondering if you should always be able to use the brand on the gloves. I was also wondering if the brand on a missile weapon should be an option.
Anyway, I thought I'd throw these out for consideration.
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Post by Variaz on Mar 31, 2009 23:23:09 GMT -5
Brandcasting with a shield would be interesting. Branding for ranged weapons COULD be put, but unless you play a brandcaster/ranged hybrid, it's not that useful. But since it's only two words of code, why not? Not sure about limiting Crafting's power based on character level though. If we did that, then the races that have a bonus to Crafting would lose most of their advantage, except being able to use some material sooner. Also, there would be no point in raising the skill above 200. And at level 200, with a 1/4 ratio, this means 50 skill points, and random magic items at that point would already be MUCH better than this. For Alchemy, increasing potions radius would make sense.
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Post by junyortrakr on Apr 1, 2009 19:06:41 GMT -5
Yea, that limit on crafting could be a little tight. I thought it might be one way to deal with it, but it may be a worse solution than what the situation is now. I haven't thought of any better ideas yet, though.
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Post by Variaz on Apr 1, 2009 19:50:30 GMT -5
Intelligence might need to benefit crafting and alchemy more than it does(that's not hard, since it doesn't ). After all, Enchanter gives a bonus to it, has an ability that allows you to use it to fight, but it's made useless by the fact that it doesn't provides any real benefit to crafting. You'd expect an inventor to be smart, so intelligence should probably have some kind of role to play. Perhaps it could be used to control the item's power limits instead of the character's level. Formula might need some tweaking, but Crafting's potential could be based on intelligence. My only concern is that it would be easy to just craft intelligence gear and make some kind of infinite crafting loop, so it would have to be based on base intelligence. That is assuming we keep the idea of making crafted items levelable. If we keep it the way it is, then intelligence could just be used to boost the existing skill in some ways.
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Post by hairybolox on Apr 3, 2009 8:12:06 GMT -5
I must admit I have never understood why Crafting & intelligence went hand in hand ?? After all isn't a Blacksmith a type of crafter & they're not exactly known for there brains are they usually just their skill & muscles ;-) Same thing with Dwarves - most fantasy sources I know have them down as wise rather than clever so again brings up the point of why the -25% to wisdom ? seems to go against the grain.... shouldn't it be a -25 to intelligence & a positive bonus to wisdom, maybe 10% Just an idea, albeit one from way out left field, any thoughts on Enchanting being wisdom based rather than intelligence.... My reasoning behind this [apart from the above bit about correcting Dwarves] is that crafting/enchanting an object with magical bonuses would be handed down from master to apprentice ie already discovered knowledge or WISDOM ;D Yes of course every student would try to create some new magical bonus during his/her career which takes intelligence but the majority of the art would be passed down & taught to them..... Yes as you said Variaz inventors should be smart, but I don't see crafting/enchanting being carried out by them - think of it as the Japanese craftsmen who created the Samurai swords. The first one who realised folding the metal 100's of times [can't remember the correct number - maybe Gando can help me there ;-) ] was the inventor BUT everyone who followed & carried on the tradition was TAUGHT to do it and they didn't have to be intelligent. If this was implemented later on in the game a characters base intelligence could influence whether a Master crafter say level 75 or so could enchant an item to be a new Artifact along with some of it's associated bonuses etc... Maybe change one of the useless Enchanters skills to one that inreases the chance of producing an artifact by boosting base intelligence - of course this wouldn't be available to use until a player hits a certain level so does he save points or lose the chance of making uber kit... ? Well what do you all think ? too wacky
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Post by Gando on Apr 3, 2009 12:02:49 GMT -5
I must admit I have never understood why Crafting & intelligence went hand in hand ?? After all isn't a Blacksmith a type of crafter & they're not exactly known for there brains are they usually just their skill & muscles ;-) Same thing with Dwarves - most fantasy sources I know have them down as wise rather than clever so again brings up the point of why the -25% to wisdom ? seems to go against the grain.... shouldn't it be a -25 to intelligence & a positive bonus to wisdom, maybe 10% Just an idea, albeit one from way out left field, any thoughts on Enchanting being wisdom based rather than intelligence.... My reasoning behind this [apart from the above bit about correcting Dwarves] is that crafting/enchanting an object with magical bonuses would be handed down from master to apprentice ie already discovered knowledge or WISDOM ;D Yes of course every student would try to create some new magical bonus during his/her career which takes intelligence but the majority of the art would be passed down & taught to them..... Yes as you said Variaz inventors should be smart, but I don't see crafting/enchanting being carried out by them - think of it as the Japanese craftsmen who created the Samurai swords. The first one who realised folding the metal 100's of times [can't remember the correct number - maybe Gando can help me there ;-) ] was the inventor BUT everyone who followed & carried on the tradition was TAUGHT to do it and they didn't have to be intelligent. If this was implemented later on in the game a characters base intelligence could influence whether a Master crafter say level 75 or so could enchant an item to be a new Artifact along with some of it's associated bonuses etc... Maybe change one of the useless Enchanters skills to one that inreases the chance of producing an artifact by boosting base intelligence - of course this wouldn't be available to use until a player hits a certain level so does he save points or lose the chance of making uber kit... ? Well what do you all think ? too wacky I can not disagree more. A dumb blacksmith would be a lousy crafter hardly able to make anything more complex than horseshoes and nails. Enchanters are even more in need of intelligence and wisdom since they are invoking magical rites and formulae to get the finished product. Dwarves are not known for being flamboyant mages but in everything from Tolkien to Norse mythology they are weilders of tremendous power in the form of crafting magics. And their wisdom regarding such things is legendary (the moon doors anyone?) I understand that your typical D&D dwarf may not have a lot of INT stat and Wis stat because thats the MinMax of that game...(get stats that work best for the mechanics at hand) but that should not frame your only idea of how things work. Re: the idea you propose, artifact crafting would be very nice ordinarily except imho in this game the only thing that makes artifacts what they are is that they are premade and have some flavor to them (Bee Sting etc). They do not even have the power of higher level blues once you get to level 30+ in the dungeons. I have yet to see a green in game so I have no idea of those are any good but I assume they are better than blues because V says they are. In which case maybe modify that idea slightly...take a less than optimal Enchanter ABILITY (I assume you mean this not skill, since there are no enchanter specific skills) and change it to: Artificer's Dream (passive) When crafting a new item with a high quality material (material level over 40) you have a very slightly chance of making a green instead of a normal item. (details to come)
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