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Post by vastin on Jul 18, 2008 19:44:57 GMT -5
Haha. Well, it's true that my perspective is a little odd concerning game balance - I've been a professional computer game designer for many years, and my specialty is game balance - particularly in multiplayer environments, which you correctly point out Portralis is not. But yeah, I don't enjoy games like Dagger-scrolls Oblivion as much as a lot of other gamers because it is impossible for me to overlook the broken/exploitable skills and classes. It's like staring at a hypnotic pattern or something, I can't tear my eyes away. A personality flaw exacerbated by force of habit.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 18, 2008 22:01:39 GMT -5
Don't worry, I use Oblivion as an example of what NOT to do in Portralis! I mean, it's not that I don't like all random bandits and their legendary daedric equipment, guards that are always 10 levels above the hero(why don't they just send their guards? ), or vampires that becomes weaker by drinking blood, but...hmm, yeah. There are some problems with adjusting the tp proportional to the item's level. Just because an item has a lower depth doesn't automatically make it better. For example, take the Twin-Cannon Dragon Handgun, a pistol that always shoot Fire-type shots, and it's rifle counterpart, the Twin-Cannon Dragon Rifle. Both are single-shot, powerful guns that shoot Fire elemental shots with a radius of 1. They are of depth 40 and 50 respectively. For a lot of reasons, such as being a Fire Elemental Lord, the radius, or just for elemental damages, you may want to use these guns over the other guns with a higher level. But if crafting them isn't worth it because they will always have less tp, then we lose a very interesting option for Gunners(and considering that the last Gunner ability is Fire-based, it isn't unlikely that Gunners will take some of the Fire Lord's abilities). Other examples includes Mithril equipment being lighter than Adamantium and in the case of Daggers, Mithril is probably better than Adamant because of that, because it will provide more blows. A Gunner/Mage hybird character might like the level 60 mana-boosting Runed Arcana pistols over the level 90 Licial-Powered Revolver. The level 80 Heavy Greater Dragon Hide Armor is much more interesting for a Monk than the level 160 Blue Steel Full Plate. And so on. To Gando: The Kensai is implemented, and will come out with the next release. I think I might upload a minor update soon, if only to test out the Kensai and the new hp formula more. A bigger update will come a bit later, with some Ivhala quests. BTW, who is this Sakura you mentionned? Is she some cute schoolgirl in uniform like we see in anime? ;D
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Post by Gando on Jul 18, 2008 22:08:11 GMT -5
Well I envy you your job then because Ive been an amature gamedesigner/beta tester for many years. RE: Oblivion I cant speak on that game as Ive never played it. Morrowind was a drag imho so I was not all that thrilled by the idea of playing it. (Plus none of my machines, pc or consoles could handle it), and I haven't really liked the Elder Scrolls series since the first one: Daggerfall. I dont think there is anything broken per se in Portralis...sure there are things that could be "better" but the question is...what works for the most people who play or will play the game...and in the case of this game it has to be the widest choices possible. Since we aren't all that concerned with gamebalance as long as we aren't dealing with out and out exploits or plot spoiling tricks etc if the build is a bit more powerful than some others its ok to play still. On the other hand if it really does discourage multiclassing and playing the game to the fullest then it needs to be adjusted until it doesn't have a negative impact on the game. One of the neatest things about this game and its ancestor rogue-likes (at least angband+ up) is that players can modify it a great deal to suit their particular interests. The fact that Portralis stands alone on its on story line with its own world and characters and game concepts just makes it all the more intriguing because the bits and peices that make up the rest can be adjusted as we like. SOOO if crafting or any particular class needs a nerf for you...go ahead and nerf it via the Lua scripting etc. If you need some directions V might be able to help you.
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Post by Gando on Jul 18, 2008 22:10:13 GMT -5
Don't worry, I use Oblivion as an example of what NOT to do in Portralis! I mean, it's not that I don't like all random bandits and their legendary daedric equipment, guards that are always 10 levels above the hero(why don't they just send their guards? ), or vampires that becomes weaker by drinking blood, but...hmm, yeah. There are some problems with adjusting the tp proportional to the item's level. Just because an item has a lower depth doesn't automatically make it better. For example, take the Twin-Cannon Dragon Handgun, a pistol that always shoot Fire-type shots, and it's rifle counterpart, the Twin-Cannon Dragon Rifle. Both are single-shot, powerful guns that shoot Fire elemental shots with a radius of 1. They are of depth 40 and 50 respectively. For a lot of reasons, such as being a Fire Elemental Lord, the radius, or just for elemental damages, you may want to use these guns over the other guns with a higher level. But if crafting them isn't worth it because they will always have less tp, then we lose a very interesting option for Gunners(and considering that the last Gunner ability is Fire-based, it isn't unlikely that Gunners will take some of the Fire Lord's abilities). Other examples includes Mithril equipment being lighter than Adamantium and in the case of Daggers, Mithril is probably better than Adamant because of that, because it will provide more blows. A Gunner/Mage hybird character might like the level 60 mana-boosting Runed Arcana pistols over the level 90 Licial-Powered Revolver. The level 80 Heavy Greater Dragon Hide Armor is much more interesting for a Monk than the level 160 Blue Steel Full Plate. And so on. To Gando: The Kensai is implemented, and will come out with the next release. I think I might upload a minor update soon, if only to test out the Kensai and the new hp formula more. A bigger update will come a bit later, with some Ivhala quests. BTW, who is this Sakura you mentionned? Is she some cute schoolgirl in uniform like we see in anime? ;D Ninjaed!!! that would be me making a really bad typo...sorry
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Post by Variaz on Jul 18, 2008 22:28:21 GMT -5
More number-crunching! Remember when I said this? Well, base damages is something to consider a lot, because more skill points does not necessarely make up for base values, at least for a specialized build. With 1800 skill points from a standard melee character with levelables, here's a very specialized build: 100 Defense 100 Agility 100 Magic Defense And 1500 Fighting! That's VERY specialized, but for the purpose of calculating damages, that'll do. With the Dwarf Enchanter, we have 1073 more skill points, so 2573 Fighting! That must make up for the huge base damages difference, right? Well, let's see: Assuming 200 Strength(975 to_d): Dwarf: 132 * 2573 = 339636 339636 + 975% = 3651087 3651087 + 200% = 10953261 per blows. Normal non-crafting character: 688 * 1500 = 1032000 1032000 + 975% = 11094000 11094000 + 200% = 33282000 per blows. So even with as many as 1073 more skill points, a regular character will still outdamage the specialized Dwarf Enchanter in the long run. The difference will be even greater for non-Dwarf, non-Enchanter crafters. And that's ignoring the fact that amongst those levelables, there could be powerful artifacts or special "green" items with a lot of base skill bonus that makes the Fighting skill even higher. And don't forget the high resistances on high-end random items! So in the long term, for a more specialized build, levelables will be better. At least for a melee build. Of course, the Enchanter will still make up for it by being more adaptable, and be able to face more situations, but for specific situations, the specialized build will be better.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 18, 2008 22:51:16 GMT -5
More number-crunching, this time with armors.
Mr. Dwarf, specialized in Crafting, crafted this:
Blue Steel Full Plate (+437, +437) [2925, +437]
While Mr. Regular created this rank 100 magic levelable version of it:
At level 1: Blue Steel Full Plate (+98, +146) [564, +18]
563 is better than the 300, but isn't the best you can get from a rank 100. I've seen 700+...
At level 35: Blue Steel Full Plate (+475, +730) [2925, +66]
So at level 35, the levelable is already better than the crafted, with the +to_a not making a big difference at all, as it's the base AC that counts the most.
At level 83: Blue Steel Full Plate (+4853, +7520) [30327, +597]
Could not level up further, because it seems base AC is still s16b integer, and crashes the program. Will need to be fixed.
Hmmm... so saying levelables are underpowered is a big mistake I believe. In fact, what I see here is the complete opposite. The difference is simply overwhelming.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 18, 2008 23:35:50 GMT -5
So it's clear now: melee is better off with levelables. By far. So what about ranged? Well, let's see... Always with the specialized Mr. Dwarf, the ranged weapons don't get better damages with Crafting. Assuming that there was 15 points in Bows to get Sharpen(and the +15 Crafting comes from whatever... ), here's what we get: Blue Steel Tipped Arrow (11d11) (+437, +437) Here's a level 1 levelable magic version(sharpened): Blue Steel Tipped Arrow(6d7) (+72, +176) At level 45: Blue Steel Tipped Arrow (10d12) (+542, +1438) At level 60: Blue Steel Tipped Arrow (12d15) (+1115, +2980) At level 100: Blue Steel Tipped Arrow (18d22) (+7797, +20933) Ok...so, it gets +20933 to_d. Yeah....that's.....enormous. Even with non-blue steel ammos, any levelable ammos will be much better. Make it a returning one, and it's much better. I suspect even a levelable bronze ammo would compete with crafted blue steel with that much of a bonus. So...it seems levelables ARE better for ranged....
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Post by Variaz on Jul 18, 2008 23:56:52 GMT -5
That leaves us with Magic characters. They are much less reliant on base values of items, and much more on their stats and skills. Therefore, and combined with the huge static mana bonus you can get from Enchanter's Mana, I believe, without making huge calculations, that the Enchanter will provide more damages for magic users, and allow for more powerful spells.
However, even magic users may be tempted by the incredible defense leveled armors provides, especially Alteration/Divination mages who don't have to rely as much on really powerful spells to be effective. And then, some rare artifacts have that "to_s" bonus, which can double(and possibly even triple or more) damages of elemental spells, so that too will make a difference. A big one in fact. But without the to_s, the levelable mage still provides a more defensive option for mages.
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Post by vastin on Jul 19, 2008 10:03:58 GMT -5
Ah, speaking of levelable...
Where can one find higher level dungeons in Portralis?
the landscape dungeons tend to be pretty low level - but do they scale to your character level? I've occasionally had one start as deep as 10-12, but usually they start at 1-5.
Is there any 'infinite' dungeon in the game? Or just plain high-level dungeon?
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Post by Variaz on Jul 19, 2008 10:34:29 GMT -5
The random dungeons in the wilderness do scale with your level.
As for "static" high-level dungeons, here's a few:
37,30 (20 to 30) 58,35 (18 to 32) 61,44 (35 to 45)
61,44 is the most difficult dungeon so far.
Of course, once I start the Ivhala quests, expect more higher level dungeons to appear.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 20, 2008 13:56:36 GMT -5
After all this, it seems there really is a balance problem between both. Crafted are much more powerful early on, but eventually pale in comparison to levelables. The difference shouldn't be that big.
I think it's time to post the formulas on how the bonus from Crafted and Levelable items are applied.
Crafted items:
- Weapons dice numbers and dice sides are increased by 1% per Crafting points, capping at 300% at Crafting 300. - Ammos(coming in next upload) gains 1% every 4 Crafting, capping at 200% at Crafting 400. - Armors base is increased by 1% per Crafting. No cap. - to_h, to_d and to_a is half the Crafting skill.
Levelable items:
- Weapons and ammos gets +25% to damages dices and sides every 15 points. It is based on the current damages dices, so the bonus keeps becoming bigger as level increase. - to_h, to_d, to_a, base ac and brand damages all increase by 5%, based on the current value.
The goals are this:
- Make Crafting less overpowered early on. - Make Crafting worth it in the late game. - Allow Crafting to tweak non-crafted items, or find some way of making it less of an "all-or-nothing" skill.
Things to consider:
- Crafting is highly adaptable, and should remain this way. So Levelables MUST be more powerful for specialized characters, since they aren't as adaptable as Crafted. But the difference shouldn't be as spectacular as 30000 AC from Levelable vs 3000 ac from Crafted.... - Basing the tp off an item's level is a bad idea, as I explained earlier, because an lower depth item could nevertheless be very useful, such as the fire-type guns, or mithril daggers having lower weight than adamant.
So we must now discuss how we want things to be.
T10 had an idea about allowing crafted items to become levelable, and I think he posted it here before, then we discussed it in private messages. While at first I thought it would be overpowered, I'm not so sure anymore, provide we nerf Crafting a bit. If Crafting provides less bonus, but we allow the crafted items to be levelable, it could work. This way, the Crafted items still offers adaptability, though a bit less(thus making them more balanced early on), but in the long run, would still be useful in the late game, even if they would be a bit less powerful due to lower base values than high-rank magic items. But the difference wouldn't be as high as it is right now, and it would also make Crafting less of an "all-or-nothing" skill.
T10's idea seems better now, though I'd like to hear more opinions. There are a lot of ways we can do things, and we need to pick a good one.
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Post by Gando on Jul 20, 2008 18:43:39 GMT -5
Im not much fond of nerfs in general and this one seems rather not so great. In addition making crafted items also levelable muddies the waters (at least in my mind). I prefer my mechanics to be not confusing.
I still think the material levels idea Phlinn and I discussed has merit. Not to base the tweak points on item level which is as you say not particularly a good idea but to assign a max tweak value based on material levels. Thus your mithril daggers are still amazing but the bronze ones you made not so much.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 20, 2008 21:01:45 GMT -5
Actually, we're not really nerfing anything, the goal is to actually improve something in the long run, but make it more balanced in the early game. Since we're talking 2940(Crafted, and the only an extremely specialized Dwarf) vs about 30000 base AC(levelable), it's significant enough to think of improving Crafting for the late game without overpowering it. The levelable was equaling the Crafted at level 35, and it wasn't even the best base value you could get...
You're right about "muddies the waters", and that's precisely why I wanted peoples to express their point of view. Making crafted items levelable do make them less unique and remove some of their flavor. Another reason why I wasn't too fond of it either. Although you've got to admit, it IS a nice way to balance the two sides of the coin, albeit not the most interesting one.
Tweak points should not be altered by materials I believe. The thing is that not all items works with the metals, such as guns and other ranged weapons(though bows use it too). As such, I don't want to discourage peoples from using the fire-element guns, if they want to. (and there could be other items like that in the future).
However, if we apply the material/item level logic to the other stats, that is, base damages and base AC, and the to_h and to_d bonus, then perhaps we could get something out of this idea. It would allow us to limit Crafting's early power a bit, but we could enhance it in the long run. We would have to make sure, however, that levelables are still better in the long run, but not to the point where we have 30000 vs 2940(and this is an extremely specialized Dwarven Crafter).
Here's a way we could do this:
Each "grades" of materials would increase the bonus that Crafting gives to the base stats, but not the skill points. I believe that's a bit what you and phlinn meant. So, we would replace the current bonus by something base on the materials:
Bronze: - Bonus to base damages is 1% for every 3 Crafting, and caps at 50%. - Bonus to base AC is 1% for every 3 Crafting. - to_d, to_h and to_a is Crafting / 4.
Iron: - Bonus to base damages is 1% for every 2 Crafting, and caps at 100%. - Bonus to base AC is 1% for every 2 Crafting. - to_d, to_h and to_a is Crafting / 3.
Steel: - Bonus to base damages is 1% for every Crafting, and caps at 200%. - Bonus to base AC is 1% for every Crafting. - to_d, to_h and to_a is Crafting / 2.
Mithril: - Bonus to base damages is 1% for every Crafting, and caps at 300%. - Bonus to base AC is 2% for every Crafting. - to_d, to_h and to_a is Crafting.
Adamantium: - Bonus to base damages is 1% for every Crafting, and caps at 400%. - Bonus to base AC is 3% for every Crafting. - to_d, to_h and to_a is Crafting * 2.
Titanium: - Bonus to base damages is 1% for every Crafting, and caps at 500%. - Bonus to base AC is 4% for every Crafting. - to_d, to_h and to_a is Crafting * 3.
Blue Steel: - Bonus to base damages is 1% for every Crafting, and caps at 600%. - Bonus to base AC is 5% for every Crafting. - to_d, to_h and to_a is Crafting * 5.
Thus making Crafted items weaker in the long run, but only in terms of base stats, not tweak points, so it's not too bad. In the long run, the Crafted items becomes more powerful than they would right now, thus giving them some more end-game worth.
But then, we would also do another change:
Levelable items gains 2 tweak points per levels.
This has the advantage of making levelables more appealing for the early game than they are right now, and allow you to use them without hours and hours of grinding.
With this method, we don't nerf much of Crafting's early potential, and we do raise levelable's. In the end, levelables are still better, but the late-game crafted would also be much better due to higher bonus from better materials.
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Post by phlinn on Jul 21, 2008 9:54:37 GMT -5
To be honest, all I was thinking of with my extra power with materials suggestion was adding say 1 tweak point per 10 depth of an item... it only had a rough correlation with materials, but was an easily accessible stat to work with that associated with every item making it pretty easy to code for. Since it was a static number for any given item, it didn't seem like it would break things too much. I like some of the alternate takes on it though. Now i'm glad gando and I slogged it out a bit on materials and crafting bonuses up thread, as it seems to have triggered some interesting ideas. Off topic edit: Actually, that would be Arena.
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Post by Gando on Jul 21, 2008 10:17:08 GMT -5
Phlinn Said:Haha ok you got me...my memory IS that bad...I remember I couldn't get Arena to run...strange bugs hampered me at the time...Daggerfall is the one I played and enjoyed to some extent.
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