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Post by Lipa on Jul 1, 2006 5:16:02 GMT -5
I’ve been thinking more about the problem with magic/melee returning monsters (we discussed this before), and I think this could possibly be the most elegant solution: First, consider this: Q: Why are magic/melee returning monsters tough? A1: Because they can kill you when you don’t pay attention and forget to look at each and every creature. A2: Because they require different strategy, special abilities and multi-class approach to the game. The correct answer, of course, should be A2, and A2 only! This is the whole idea of these monsters. Killing you when you’re not prepared, on the other hand, is nothing but a nuisance. And it makes you spit out a few curses each time it happens. So we talked about certain “warnings” or “highlights”, but wouldn’t it be more simple if the game would just ask the player if he really wants to proceed with the attack? An example: you are standing in front of a melee returning naga and you swing your mighty sword. The game engine recognizes the hazardous event, and a message is displayed: “You are about to hit a melee returning monster. Are you sure you want to proceed? (Y/N)” Seeing this message, you quickly learn what you’re up against, and consider your further actions. On the other hand, if you try to cast a magic bolt at the same monster, no message is displayed and the action is executed. IMHO, nothing of the “flavor” would be lost by this. Monsters would still be a difficult nut to crack, and yet the player would be spared of all the stupid and totally unnecessary deaths. Not to mention the time saved by *not* looking at everything... As to the coding, I believe this feature wouldn't be too hard to implement either, right? Consider this, and have fun!
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Post by nork on Jul 1, 2006 18:56:38 GMT -5
I agree and disagree at the same time. I don't want the game to play it's self, if I did I would be playing Star Wars Galaxies. It is a pain to look at every thing first but I like what has been done in 1.8.0 beta. Every monster that has a special ability has it's abilities shown on the monster recall screen. One thing you can do is lead off with a safe attack like accurate strike or some thing like that.
Yes it is a pain in the ass to run up to a monster and kill your self, but if you don't look at a dangerous situation first it can kill you.
Just my .02 GP
Nork
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Post by Variaz on Jul 1, 2006 20:57:59 GMT -5
Well, it would be easy to code a message that appear once you hit the monster... on the other hand, as nork said, if the game plays itself for you, it's not fun. Also, the returning ability will NEVER kill you at all if you code a message.
Also, this problem is solved with placing 5 points in Combat Feats. And since a careful player should always look at the enemis, to know what you're facing, it's not good to take the habit not too look at what you're up against...
One way I can think to solve the problem would be to display the message if you attack(assuming no combat feats skill). However, if you choose to cancel your attack, it STILL takes a move, and allow the monster to attack you. This way, you are still penalized by not having been careful, although it's not as bad as an instant-death return attack...
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Post by Lipa on Jul 2, 2006 1:47:08 GMT -5
Hm... I see your point, and I must agree to some extent. But let me just explain my feelings about this a little more in detail: As I said before, I *love* elites and bosses. All the abilities that they possess are great, including damage returning. I guess I just understand the whole idea a little differently: To me, damage returning abilities are not fun or interesting because they can kill you, but because they require different strategy! You can’t just stick to one class / type of character and hack and slash your way through the dungeon. Instead, you must gain special abilities (like accurate strike you mentioned), try different approaches... Tactical thinking! As to being killed by this type of monster, well, the thing is that this kind of death is even now *totally* avoidable! It’s not something that would require gaming experience (like the classic newbie mistake of not bringing any teleportation stuff along) or something like that. No, these deaths can be avoided right from the start, no matter who you are, no matter your knowledge of the game, no matter anything at all. So even now, damage returning abilities should NEVER kill you, if you play by the book! All you have to do is LOOK at the monsters around. And everyone can do that, it only requires TIME. And this is why I would like to see this a little changed or something. To me, looking around is a nuisance, a waste of time that somewhat slows down the momentum of the game, the suspense of the action. So many key presses to perform a single action. Indeed, I wouldn’t like the game to play itself either. But I figured, if ANYONE can look around and detect elites and bosses, couldn’t we simply let this basic and mindless action for the computer to do? In the end, we would still have to kill the monster by ourselves, and that would *still* be a difficult task, and it would *still* require all the special abilities and tactical thinking. True, we would never die this way, but how wrong is that? Because these instant deaths are even now, I say again, 100% avoidable! We would only spare much, much, *much* time! However, I now realize that this is just the way how I feel about it. And I totally understand what you wrote above. So it’s perfectly OK if the game stays the way it is. After all, the game is GREAT already! I just wanted to show what I think about the issue, and perhaps see if someone else shares my feelings. Anyway, I hope I’m not being too much of a pain in the ass. ;D I’m just thrilled about the way how this projects evolves, and would very much like to help at least in some small extent. Best regards!
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Post by nork on Jul 2, 2006 7:50:32 GMT -5
One possibility is to have all elite/boss monsters are bold or italic. That way you can see that they are special if you are paying attention. And lets face it, if you run in to a group of orcs and one of them is an elite you would be able to tell by the sight of him that he is different.
This solution would still make you pay attention to what you are killing and lets you see the elite monsters fairly easily.
Nork
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Post by Variaz on Jul 2, 2006 19:20:00 GMT -5
I like the idea of having bold characters for monsters! Not sure if changing a single character to bold will be easy code-wise though... but I'll take a look at it, and see if it's easy to do it. That would definitly be useful!
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Post by Lipa on Jul 3, 2006 5:14:09 GMT -5
Excellent! This is probably the best idea so far! Heh, heh, and it would also force all the tile freaks to switch to ASCII as well! ;D
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grindorin
Champion
Das Haenchen lebt.
Posts: 151
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Post by grindorin on Jul 5, 2006 18:10:30 GMT -5
Tiles? What are those? Since I first started playing Moria a great many years ago, ASCII is the only way to be. ;D
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Post by nork on Jul 5, 2006 21:43:48 GMT -5
I think I have played with tiles for a total of 15 minutes through all of my rogue-like time.
Nork
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Post by Variaz on Jul 5, 2006 22:08:55 GMT -5
Well, it's good to hear that from you all, because don't think for a minute that I will make a tile for every new monsters I create!
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eagleon
Rookie
Aspiring Technohermit
Posts: 12
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Post by eagleon on Jul 6, 2006 14:11:17 GMT -5
About the only way I'll play a roguelike with graphics is IVAN style, where things change based on what's happening in the game. They actually -helped- the player understand what was going on. Other than that, it might as well be text - saves the eyesore of discerning a rat from a dog at such low res. I love this idea. Pleeease, put it in 1.80 somehow, even if it just uses a one-time text warning up top. You could make it toggleable as another iron-man setting. It's definately been one of my main pet peeves about this variant - so much tedium is added by having to looking at -everything- for those two little flags, even at early levels. (Might as well post this here, since it's short, and I don't like posting excessively. I've made a little bit of progress on editing the story, but not much. Summer school started today, so I might not finish it in a while, but I still plan to do so. Cheers!
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Post by junyortrakr on Jul 23, 2006 12:37:42 GMT -5
It would be nice to see the elites and bosses such that they can be immediately noticed. It would be even better if elites and bosses were different from each other, too. Of course, it wouldn't tell you what was special about them, but I wouldn't mind checking that.
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Post by Variaz on Jul 23, 2006 18:14:00 GMT -5
Well... found a solution to the problem that was fairly easy to code! And it's done! I created two unique colors. A light pink, and a dark pink. No monsters in the game have those colors. So from now on, when you will see a monster that has a light pink color, it's an elite! If it's dark pink, it's a boss! And you will easily recognise these colors on screen! So there you go, elites and bosses are now easier to spot!
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Post by junyortrakr on Jul 24, 2006 11:25:19 GMT -5
It sounds like a good solution. Now, if those of us who are colorblind can actually tell them apart, it'll be sweet.
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Post by Lipa on Aug 19, 2006 16:14:41 GMT -5
Variaz, I haven’t played much of the second beta yet, but let me just say that this “color” elite/boss coding works like a charm! It’s SOOOO much easier and less tedious to play when you don’t have to ‘l’ook at everything. Great solution to this problem, thumbs up!!! ;D
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